Comments on: What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

By: Jonalyn

Jonalyn — Wed, 23 May 2012 19:26:30 +0000

Kristie,

Excellent points, this is not another star on our lapels, nor is it a circus act.

Thank you for being an example of how to use the gift of tongues!

By: Jonalyn

Jonalyn — Wed, 23 May 2012 19:24:23 +0000

A beautiful testimony here, Mike, of your clinging to the truth even when the mob judged you.

I hope God shows you his Beauty and his Trustworthiness in how he is currently working on re-storing your back.

I’m so thankful you still know Him, despite these abuses of His word from “his” people.

By: Jonalyn

Jonalyn — Wed, 23 May 2012 19:21:47 +0000

Cherry,

Your experience is beautiful. I love the variety of work the Spirit is about. Thank you for sharing.

I hope everyone reads your comment!

By: Joan Myers

Joan Myers — Tue, 22 May 2012 18:59:31 +0000

This was awesome in how Stephen expressed this: “I think the most important factor is your understanding that when you accepted Jesus into your life, you received a whole lot more than you could have ever bargained for. How He chooses to reveal Himself is based on your relationship with Him and His understanding of what you can handle and when. I am confident that He will continually surprise us with more of His Presence with whatever capacity we allow Him to fill.” I love this topic, as I was raised old school Latin Catholic, so the ‘Holy Spirit’ as I now know it, exceeds all of what I ever knew and expected when making the sign of the Cross and ending it in Holy Spirit, Amen. Yes, I was baptized, yes I made my communion, and even confirmation. I went to catechism. But I never received the joyous, redemptive message of Christ and his gift of His Holy Spirit as an active and motivational impetus in my life. At the age of mid forties, HE began calling. He must have really thought I was old enough to handle some pretty ‘in your face’ appearances, as He began to show up everywhere. Let’s take the gal who raised her son alone, who never had a dad, who made a ‘horrific’ list of bad choices, who was church homeless without enough conscience to find one and turn her into a missionary, who can feel my Presence and allow her to quit the Corporate world to follow me and work in ministry, sometimes paid and sometimes not paid. That is the Holy Spirit. He fills us with so much love and aspiration, that we do things that we would never even think of on our own.
Being a mom of a son who found a solid foundation in Christ when he met his Christian girlfriend relieved me from trying to explain all I had been through, and how I am where I am today. Sanctification is a life long process, and everyone is at a different place in their faith journey learning different things according to when Christ thinks we can handle his Divine Revelation. My son, got his first divine appointment last week at 34 years old. I mean first “big one”. He has had a terrible time at work with disrespect from higher up and a Regional Manager that could be deemed Satan’s assistant if allowed. Manipulation, ill-will, deception, you name it. My son has been in prayer for a very long time, and one day began to talk to me about it. Since I have the history of not knowing God could communicate with me with the Holy Spirit, I made sure that Brandon wasn’t just praying up, but listening for His still small voice. Through devotions, prayers, and patiently waiting (the last one not being his strong suit at all, at any time….), he calls me and tells me that he heard God clearly say that he was supposed to move closer to Art, his Regional Manager and effect his life. Turns out this man used to be a pastor, and through a succession of things during his lifetime, seems to have left Our Creator for Corp greed and power. My son is up for promotion and through the process was put through unreasonable emotional and psychological punishment for an exceedingly stellar performance. His conversation with me was remarkable in that it wasn’t about the position he may be able to secure, it was for this man’s salvation and return to Christ while breaking bread with him during his lunch and learning his story. My son said, “mom, I know it is God’s will, as I would never have thought this up myself…”. So he has called the Regional and asked him to meet him for lunch. This lunch is Wednesday (tomorrow). He said, “I have no idea what I am supposed to do exactly.” After all these years, I was able to finally say, “it is ok, that is the way the Holy Spirit works. You show up, you open your heart and whatever you are supposed to say, will be given to you.” “you will be fine.” It truly is a supernatural power for us to allow the Holy Spirit to lead us. Yes, it can be frightening. But He will take us places we never imagined we would ever be able to go, and in the end we will always be thankful, have a richer more rewarding life because of Him, and affect others to be ‘more appropriately human.’

By: Kristie Vosper

Kristie Vosper — Tue, 22 May 2012 16:30:24 +0000

Gosh, great questions and thoughtful responses. Thank you everyone. I’ve enjoyed reading.

I can offer my experience:

I think that Stephen is right about the sanctification process. I think in the process of coming to know Jesus more and more he reveals more and more of who we actually are…as a human child of the King. Amazing.

Our diverse gifts will manifest in colorful and exciting ways as we allow His Spirit to empower us more and more. I’ve seen things with my eyes I never believed in, but I surrender the limits of my mind to the limitlessness of God.

I can remember the moment, I was in 7th grade on a rock at Forest Home outside my cabin when I think I really felt and encountered the Holy Spirit for the first time in a radical way. Was it the baptism? Perhaps. I don’t know. I know that I did hear that “still small voice” guide me through my childhood…so I don’t really know.

I think there is so much mystery here when it comes to how the Spirit moves.

I had never heard of “The Baptism of the Holy Spirit” until I was about 25. I grew up Presbyterian, and as far as I knew, we all had full access to the Trinity as believers. I still believe this.

Sitting on a couch at 25 in my mentor’s home I asked her about the gift of tongues. I’d had several people prophesy that they believed God wanted to give this gift to me.

I was horrified…but prayed “Ok, Lord, if this is a gift I need or you want to give me…help me be open to your leading.”

We prayed together. In silence I added my own prayer “Ok Lord, I surrender all of my thoughts if your Spirit wants to do something here. I don’t want to get in the way.” Seconds later, out of my mouth came this unknown language. It was so weird at first, but now it’s a tool in my armor. I love that I have words for which there are none. I love when the Spirit wants to use this language to pray through me to the Father.

The hardest part has been reconciling my intellect with my experience. I just simply don’t know…still. I have some smatterings of understanding…but overall I just surrender that the Spirit is using this gift.

The part that frustrates me is all the controversy about it. I wanted to talk about it. Some hushed me, some wanted me to enter their elite club of insiders. Ugh. I understand why it is so divisive, but it is so unnecessary. I am not more of a christian, or more filled with the Lord because of this gift. I am an equal heir to the throne of God based on His marvelous grace.

It makes me sad when I hear people say “prophesy and tongues and all that is fake!!” because I know it is not. I feel equally sad when I hear folks say “Oh she’s in, he’s out…” as if sorting who has the Holy Spirit and who doesn’t. Rubbish. Total rubbish to treat our brothers and sisters in this way.

We all need to be fully seeking the Lord in his fullness as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Clubs for this camp and that camp are the work of the enemy…and I think so often our hundreds of denominations look much more like clubs than the “church.”

By: Kristie Vosper

Kristie Vosper — Tue, 22 May 2012 16:11:06 +0000

What a fantastic and thoughtful response.

By: Mike Willis

Mike Willis — Tue, 15 May 2012 11:04:11 +0000

One thing I find interesting is the way the Bible describes the events at Pentecost. When the Apostles came out of the room, and were filled with the Holy Spirit, there was a massive crowd waiting for them, many from all over the Empire. There were Jews, of course, but the Bible also says there were people there from “Asia” – which to the Roman world was modern Turkey and the Caucasus region, there were Arabs, Egyptians, Greeks, undoubtedly some Romans, probably people from the Western Empire – what would become Spain and France – and North Africa. I also have little doubt there were traders from modern Asia as well – it is well established that there was a high level of trade between Rome and China during this time, and Jerusalem was, and remains, a crossroads of culture and trade, it’s one of the reasons the area is so contested in history. The Bible says that the Apostles spoke in their own words, and each person heard them in their native tongue. So Peter and the rest were speaking in Aramaic Hebrew – their mother tongue – and each was hearing them as if they were speaking their own language. If I were there, I would have heard English. What is amazing is I have witnessed this in the field, with people speaking and understanding each other, but not speaking the same language. God acted as the interpreter, and caused the ear and mind of the listener to hear the words. Later in the Bible, in 1 Corinthians 12, we see a list of, and explanation of, the gifts of the Spirit, and how they are to be used. Speaking in tongues is touched on, in that same book. I find it interesting that speaking in tongues is clearly listed as a tool for use in conveying God to unbelievers, not to believers, and if it is used in church, there must be someone there to translate it. I have been in church services where people began to speak in gibberish, loudly, swaying and stumbling. I felt a great wave of evil wash over me when that happened. I felt dirty. No one stood up to translate, and the pastor exclaimed what a wonderful gift we had been given, that the woman had been “taken by the Spirit” and we had witnessed a miracle. I agree, she was taken by a spirit, but I don’t think it was the one that she would have wanted. We are told by the writer in 1 Corinthians that the gift of Prophecy is for the edification of believers. Now, what exactly prophecy is, we are not really clear of in our modern philosophies. We have been brainwashed to believe that “prophecy” means foretelling the future, and that alone. Well, sure, that is a part of it, but that’s like saying the ocean has salt in it. “Prophecy” means to reveal the unknown, to make the unknowable known and visible. When a person stands before another, and reveals knowledge of that person they have absolutely no way of knowing, that is prophecy, I believe, in the way the writer intended. We are told over and over in 1 Corinthians that our gifts must bring unity, or they are not serving their godly purpose.
The Charismatic Movement seeks to have obvious, outward expressions of Gods presence in their meetings, and there is nothing wrong, or misplaced, or evil in that intent. Unfortunately, it is too often used by charlatans – yes, that’s a harsh word, but call a duck a duck – to establish a grip on a crowd seeking truth and proof, and are so deeply desirous of seeing proof of what they believe they will cling to anything which gives them that proof, like a sailor will cling to a piece of wood in the ocean, adrift. We do not see the miraculous as often today in the First World as the Bible describes – though my understanding is if you go out in the field, in lands like Africa and the jungles of South America, you will see miracles coming out of the very ground you walk on – and so we demand the miraculous, and there are always those who will give it to us, whether it is real or not. I spent several months going to a church with my wife’s family when we moved back to California after I was discharged from the Navy many years ago. I had been seriously injured in the service, walked with a cane, and took painkiller pills like they were candy. This particular church was very charismatic. It was at this church the woman spoke in “tongues” and the pastor praised it. One day they had a “healing” service. Now, healing by faith happens. I’ve seen it too often to not believe it does. The pastor walked right up to me, and said to me – while waving the microphone in my face – that if I had faith, I would be healed. He took my cane away, and told me to walk. I took one step, and collapsed in agony when my hip wrenched, and my spine couldn’t take it. Did the pastor help me up? No, he turned to the crowd – the mob would be a better word – and announced that I obviously didn’t have enough faith, or God would have healed me instantly, right there and then. It was my fault that I didn’t dance for joy, not that God didn’t have it in His plan for me to be healed yet. My wife’s grandfather looked at me like I was a bug he had seen crawl from out of an apple he had just bitten into, and the people around me turned and whispered to each other behind their hands. That was the last time I went to that church. I spent months studying the “Gifts of the Spirit” after that, and saw that what was being taught was wrong, and contradictory to the Bible. I brought this to the attention of my Grandfather-in-law, who said that he understood my position, but that the “good accomplished by what (the pastor) did far outweighed the negative of him not being entirely biblically sound.” This coming from a man who works for a major tract company, pushing an extremist view of Christianity, who says that we need to cling to what is true, and deny what is wrong or false.
We are told, time and again, that our Gifts – and we are all given a gift, like the author said – are for witnessing and unifying the Church. We are specifically told that not everyone gets the same gifts. “It is given to some to prophecy – to reveal the unknown – and some to discern spirits *my particular gift* and to some are given the power to heal” we are told. You may not be endowed with the gift of Tongues, so don’t feel like you are not touched by the Spirit because you haven’t experienced it. The author goes on to say “a foot does not look at the hand and say ‘I will not do my job because I am not a hand’, nor an eye to the tongue say ‘because I cannot speak I am not part of the body’”. We are all part of the body of Christ. We all have different and divergent roles we play. But we work in unity and unison to make the body work as a whole. A body made entirely of feet will fail, as will a body made entirely of tongues – not to mention that would be one freaky looking body.
Thanks for those who read my lengthy response. I hope I help in some puny way.
May God bless you and keep you, may His grace shine upon you and bring you peace.

By: Cherry

Cherry — Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:07:43 +0000

I read through your whole comment line with interest, and thought, I might have something to say here. My experience does not fit any camp, and I’m still uncertain to this day, 44 yrs. later, how to define it. But what it was called then was ‘baptism of the Holy Spirit’.

Briefly, I grew up in a liberal christian, churched home. Sunday Schools, choir, youth group, all. But there was no Word of God spoken in our home. (Those who did were a little fanatical.) And we had the dysfunctions of those who didn’t. Lots of self-help. But no grace. No peace. No acknowledgement of sin.

I think I was a believer from a young child, though oppressed and depressed, and always guilty and fearful. I prayed, read the Bible, cried out to God as a teenager, but didn’t feel any connection. Went to Jr. College, found a boyfriend, and ended up co-dependent, sexually active for 8 years. Someone will say I was merely unsaved. I sometimes wonder too. But that is another discussion.

At the age of 27, I cried out to God once again. This time there were ‘Spirit-filled’ people in my main-line denomination who adopted me, prayed me out, told me I was worth more to God than this.

I renounced the sin. Left the guy. Started going to church. But still dark, dark, dark. And depressed. Still in bondage.

A small group leader said, “you need the baptism of the Holy Spirit.” They put their hands on me, and prayed. No ‘bells and whistles’, no tongues. But the gray in my spirit was silent. The heaviness left. Not depressed, but not complete.

The next day I had an appt. with the pastor who just laid out the salvation scriptures, ones I’d heard all my life. Oh, that one sounds like me. Oh, I’m in the Bible! Oh, I get it now!!! This was what completed my awakening, the graveclothes coming off. The Word of God became living and active, sharper than a two-edged sword.

That’s when I knew what kind’ve power they were to receive at Pentecost… power to wield the Word in agreement with God for doing God’s will and bringing His Kingdom to bear in every situation. Power to discern the lie and resist the devil. Power to speak with authority, or at least courage, when all my life I’d cowered under ‘trying to stay safe’. Power to ‘call those things that be not as though they were’. Power to ‘pull down strongholds and every high thing that exalts itself again the knowledge of God’. Even if was only in my own little spirit.

Maybe it was just a ‘healing’. I don’t fit a doctrine, I think. Neither does my husband. He was filled with the Spirit, with the speaking in tongues, at the same time as salvation, he thinks, in his own bedroom, ALONE. He says in his telling of it, “I don’t know if it was the ‘baptism of the Holy Spirit’, but I was sure filled with something.”

There seems to be as many ways to receive the More of God as there are people. For me, it was, I think, a second experience. For my husband, a first. The one thing we know, baptism power and its gifts did not die out in the first century. He is still the Baptizer, same yesterday, today and forever. We have not fit into any camp since then, either. The Baptizer can’t be formulized.

By: Jim

Jim — Fri, 13 Apr 2012 22:35:29 +0000

Jonalyn raises some good questions for Ruth to consider and I appreciate her passing on what she has learned from her Quaker tradition. As Stephen mentions in his first post, we don’t always have to play one tradition off against another. Sometimes, they can provide complementary perspectives. In that spirit, I offer what I’ve found helpful that may perhaps also make sense of Bea’s experience.

When John baptized repentant Israel with water (Matthew 4), he promised that Messiah would baptize with the Holy Spirit. When did that “one baptism” take place? My heart is drawn to the feast of Pentecost (Acts 2). Seven Sundays after the day Jesus rose from the dead, as ascended Lord and Messiah, Jesus poured out his Spirit on all flesh. That was the “one baptism.” One of the evidences that that happened was the miracle that pilgrims from all parts of the empire heard uneducated followers of Jesus speaking to them in their native languages. That same day Peter promised the gift of the Spirit to all who turned to Jesus in faith.

I tend to wonder if the “one baptism” didn’t take place on that one day, so that all who turn to Jesus in subsequent days might receive the gift of the Spirit, be filled by the Spirit, walk in the Spirit, etc. Bea and Stephen offer great testimony on what life in the Spirit is about.

“Tongues” were again in evidence when the household of a Roman centurion came to faith in Jesus. From this, Peter concluded they had received the gift of the Holy Spirit too (Acts 10). He does not say that they have just been baptized by the Spirit, but they would not have received the gift of the Spirit if Jesus had not baptized or poured out the Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

So I do take it that tongues are a sign that the baptism has taken place and been appropriated by faith. But as previous comments have hinted, not everyone who receives the gift of the Spirit has to experience tongues as a speaker or hearer. I may experience the wind of the Spirit blowing through my life in other ways. It is enough to believe the testimony of the sign of tongues which points beyond itself to Jesus who poured out his Spirit on all flesh– men and women, young and old, Jew and Roman, etc.

I’m sure my understanding on this isn’t airtight, but it does a pretty good job of making sense of this matter for me.

By: Jonalyn

Jonalyn — Thu, 12 Apr 2012 03:37:41 +0000

Ruth,

Great comments above, I love the freedom that Stephen and Be a have outlined in terms of listening to the Spirit.

One verse that’s always helped me iron out what this means is found in Eph 4:5. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

And since the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the water seemed to occur at different times in Acts it leaves us wondering which one is Paul talking about?

Which “one” is most important?

The Quaker tradition in which I was raised (which does not baptist in water) said Eph 4:5 was speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They defined this baptism as the HS given to you, a downpayment of God’s presence. This an experience that accompanied your trust and love for God. Baptism of the HS was a secure thing, something that’s an anchor of your soul. See Eph 1:13.

I find that helpful in terms of how I understand what baptism of the Holy Spirit means in practical terms. God is with me at all times in his Spirit.

This is not to say that baptism of the Holy Spirit never involves speaking in tongues. I Cor 13 and 14 are helpful on that issue. What do you think of these passages?

I’d love to hear any follow-up thoughts you might have!