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	<title>Comments on: Choosing to Live - by Molly Davis</title>
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	<description>good any time of day</description>
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		<title>By: Deborah</title>
		<link>http://soulation.org/breakfastreading/2011/10/choosing-to-live.html#comment-761</link>
		<dc:creator>Deborah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:54:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soulation.org/breakfastreading/?p=1425#comment-761</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[p.s.--I had one friend who was blamed by almost all her friends for her husbands&#039; affairs even though she was keeping herself beautiful, being very submissive, etc.  I totally know of the &quot;advice&quot; you are talking about.  :-/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p.s.&#8211;I had one friend who was blamed by almost all her friends for her husbands&#8217; affairs even though she was keeping herself beautiful, being very submissive, etc.  I totally know of the &#8220;advice&#8221; you are talking about.  :-/</p>
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		<title>By: Deborah</title>
		<link>http://soulation.org/breakfastreading/2011/10/choosing-to-live.html#comment-760</link>
		<dc:creator>Deborah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soulation.org/breakfastreading/?p=1425#comment-760</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Molly, it sounds like you are continuing to do well in this journey of discovery.  

The other day I removed Voskamp from my amazon shopping cart thinking that although my sister has always had a lot of bitterness that she&#039;s never let go of, right now an exhortation to be thankful for anything past or present might feel like a heavy yoke.  And then today I thought of returning here to see if you had written a response: confirmation :).

My sister has always been by far the controlling one in her marriage even though she harrangues me for what little she knows of my egalitarian beliefs which she insists are unbiblical.  In most respects, he&#039;s been the one co-dependent on her up until now.  In a way, now he is having a co-dependent breakdown.  So I find her situation a little different to speak into than most wives&#039; of alcoholics (having known others) or abused wives (she is the one you could most readily have labeled abusive).  Previously when I&#039;d tried to talk to her about receiving counseling, she would perhaps break down for a moment of acknowledgement but then determine that she simply was a cruel person, that this was her personality and that our parents were to blame for it.  It is so sad....  Now she is starting to realize that not changing is not entirely an option.  

I noticed that the Grace is the Place author also has a book out on developing spiritual health, and I&#039;d wondered about that.  I&#039;ll also look into the book you suggest. One thing that I know is hard for her is that so few people she&#039;s around day to day KNOW what is going on b/c if they knew it would be trouble for her kids at school.  So as she is  having to start this process, she needs other voices to give her company, I think.  I&#039;ll continue browsing Amazon to find those w/ your suggestion in mind.

She would have thrown in the towel by now if she were not financially dependent on him and living in one of the most expensive parts of the country.

Thanks so much, and amen and amen to learning that we do have choices.  Although unmarried, I have &quot;been there&quot; in multiple scenarios, including pressure to marry an abusive pastor, something that was presented to me by several leaders as unequivocally God&#039;s will.  My inner being is still struggling to learn parts of it.  

(hugs)  Deb]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Molly, it sounds like you are continuing to do well in this journey of discovery.  </p>
<p>The other day I removed Voskamp from my amazon shopping cart thinking that although my sister has always had a lot of bitterness that she&#8217;s never let go of, right now an exhortation to be thankful for anything past or present might feel like a heavy yoke.  And then today I thought of returning here to see if you had written a response: confirmation <img src='http://soulation.org/breakfastreading/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> .</p>
<p>My sister has always been by far the controlling one in her marriage even though she harrangues me for what little she knows of my egalitarian beliefs which she insists are unbiblical.  In most respects, he&#8217;s been the one co-dependent on her up until now.  In a way, now he is having a co-dependent breakdown.  So I find her situation a little different to speak into than most wives&#8217; of alcoholics (having known others) or abused wives (she is the one you could most readily have labeled abusive).  Previously when I&#8217;d tried to talk to her about receiving counseling, she would perhaps break down for a moment of acknowledgement but then determine that she simply was a cruel person, that this was her personality and that our parents were to blame for it.  It is so sad&#8230;.  Now she is starting to realize that not changing is not entirely an option.  </p>
<p>I noticed that the Grace is the Place author also has a book out on developing spiritual health, and I&#8217;d wondered about that.  I&#8217;ll also look into the book you suggest. One thing that I know is hard for her is that so few people she&#8217;s around day to day KNOW what is going on b/c if they knew it would be trouble for her kids at school.  So as she is  having to start this process, she needs other voices to give her company, I think.  I&#8217;ll continue browsing Amazon to find those w/ your suggestion in mind.</p>
<p>She would have thrown in the towel by now if she were not financially dependent on him and living in one of the most expensive parts of the country.</p>
<p>Thanks so much, and amen and amen to learning that we do have choices.  Although unmarried, I have &#8220;been there&#8221; in multiple scenarios, including pressure to marry an abusive pastor, something that was presented to me by several leaders as unequivocally God&#8217;s will.  My inner being is still struggling to learn parts of it.  </p>
<p>(hugs)  Deb</p>
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		<title>By: molly</title>
		<link>http://soulation.org/breakfastreading/2011/10/choosing-to-live.html#comment-758</link>
		<dc:creator>molly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:15:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soulation.org/breakfastreading/?p=1425#comment-758</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Marie,
((((((((((hugs))))))))))

It is a process, as you have so wonderfully said.  It is always a process.  Even after an epiphany of sorts (for those who experience such) there is still the slow and often difficult process of walking out of the old ways of thinking and into the new.  There is pretty much nothing fun or easy about breaking out.  It is a lot easier to stay in, in many ways, and I think that is why so many people do.  

You touch on so many excellent points.  I love how you bring out how easy it is to be told what to do, think and feel.  It is death to the soul, and yet...it is so easy, so nice, so pleasant to allow someone else to call the shots and bear the responsibility.  Even after escaping it, it is still so very tempting to go back to it (in one form or another).  

I also appreciated how you brought up the feelings of guilt.  We were taught about God within a culture of fear, and that fear and condemnation take a long time to recover from.  (Consider it a form of spiritual PTSD.  That&#039;s what I do---*sad grin*).  It takes time to heal. There is no shame in that.  Take all the time that is needed.  I figured that when the feelings of guilt, fear or condemnation arise, it was just the ache of a severe wound now in the thick of the healing process.  

I also loved how you brought up that learning how to listen to one&#039;s thoughts, feelings and intuition is HUGE, when so many of us were steadily trained to A.) primarily trust the spiritual leader&#039;s, and B.) to MISTRUST one&#039;s own thoughts, feelings and intuition (unless they agreed with said spiritual leader).  So realizing that one has personal power and the ability to make ones own choices in life is neat and all...but when you have been systematically trained to disrespect your own voice, to shove down your own feelings, to consider your own thoughts as sinful...it can be VERY difficult.  

It&#039;s a process...and, as you said so well, it does start feeling better and becoming more and more natural seeming, this foreign business of listening to our very own voice, becoming aware that we have choices...this adventure of becoming aware that we really do get to have our very own life.  

Thank you so much for sharing and I send lots of well wishes for your journey.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marie,<br />
((((((((((hugs))))))))))</p>
<p>It is a process, as you have so wonderfully said.  It is always a process.  Even after an epiphany of sorts (for those who experience such) there is still the slow and often difficult process of walking out of the old ways of thinking and into the new.  There is pretty much nothing fun or easy about breaking out.  It is a lot easier to stay in, in many ways, and I think that is why so many people do.  </p>
<p>You touch on so many excellent points.  I love how you bring out how easy it is to be told what to do, think and feel.  It is death to the soul, and yet&#8230;it is so easy, so nice, so pleasant to allow someone else to call the shots and bear the responsibility.  Even after escaping it, it is still so very tempting to go back to it (in one form or another).  </p>
<p>I also appreciated how you brought up the feelings of guilt.  We were taught about God within a culture of fear, and that fear and condemnation take a long time to recover from.  (Consider it a form of spiritual PTSD.  That&#8217;s what I do&#8212;*sad grin*).  It takes time to heal. There is no shame in that.  Take all the time that is needed.  I figured that when the feelings of guilt, fear or condemnation arise, it was just the ache of a severe wound now in the thick of the healing process.  </p>
<p>I also loved how you brought up that learning how to listen to one&#8217;s thoughts, feelings and intuition is HUGE, when so many of us were steadily trained to A.) primarily trust the spiritual leader&#8217;s, and B.) to MISTRUST one&#8217;s own thoughts, feelings and intuition (unless they agreed with said spiritual leader).  So realizing that one has personal power and the ability to make ones own choices in life is neat and all&#8230;but when you have been systematically trained to disrespect your own voice, to shove down your own feelings, to consider your own thoughts as sinful&#8230;it can be VERY difficult.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s a process&#8230;and, as you said so well, it does start feeling better and becoming more and more natural seeming, this foreign business of listening to our very own voice, becoming aware that we have choices&#8230;this adventure of becoming aware that we really do get to have our very own life.  </p>
<p>Thank you so much for sharing and I send lots of well wishes for your journey.</p>
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		<title>By: Marie</title>
		<link>http://soulation.org/breakfastreading/2011/10/choosing-to-live.html#comment-757</link>
		<dc:creator>Marie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 16:01:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soulation.org/breakfastreading/?p=1425#comment-757</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Molly, thanks. I&#039;ve been ease-dropping here. (-: As a woman who was given &quot;Created to be his Help-meet&quot; as a wedding gift and was raised in a patriarchy/complementarianism focused churches, I needed to hear this. I too have read Beattie and so many other good books. Yet I still struggle with those last remnants of my traditions. Some of those remnants are stuck mostly in my emotions. I start feeling guilty about things I believe are OK. But some are still in my thought structure.I keep re-asking questions like: Am I being selfish? Is it OK to get a divorce? Am I being to hard and unyeilding in my boundaries? I realize part of this is fear. For a perfectionistic people-pleaser like myself, it is easier to just tic off the requirements or goals that someone else has established for you. And, in the end, you get a nice little pat on the head. To make my own decisions, live my own life, seems so big and scary. I like the adventure of it. I&#039;m slowly moving forward. But, it is still so intimidating. Sometimes I just want to revert and say, &quot;OK, someone tell me what to do&quot;. (In fact I often do, by seeking &quot;wise counsel&quot;, when I already have thought something out and know what I want to do.) My hope is that as I make more and more decisions based on my own reason and instinct and motives, and as life gets better for me (because it feels a whole lot better than it did before), I will reinforce this new way of living and it will come more naturally. Already I see myself demanding it more. When I feel someone&#039;s &quot;wise counsel&quot; turning into prescriptions or judgments, my insides twist and I start to back away. Eventually, I hope to live my life without struggling with feeling guilty for being &quot;selfish&quot;. You can count me as one person you have helped re-teach away from the old system.  Thanks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Molly, thanks. I&#8217;ve been ease-dropping here. (-: As a woman who was given &#8220;Created to be his Help-meet&#8221; as a wedding gift and was raised in a patriarchy/complementarianism focused churches, I needed to hear this. I too have read Beattie and so many other good books. Yet I still struggle with those last remnants of my traditions. Some of those remnants are stuck mostly in my emotions. I start feeling guilty about things I believe are OK. But some are still in my thought structure.I keep re-asking questions like: Am I being selfish? Is it OK to get a divorce? Am I being to hard and unyeilding in my boundaries? I realize part of this is fear. For a perfectionistic people-pleaser like myself, it is easier to just tic off the requirements or goals that someone else has established for you. And, in the end, you get a nice little pat on the head. To make my own decisions, live my own life, seems so big and scary. I like the adventure of it. I&#8217;m slowly moving forward. But, it is still so intimidating. Sometimes I just want to revert and say, &#8220;OK, someone tell me what to do&#8221;. (In fact I often do, by seeking &#8220;wise counsel&#8221;, when I already have thought something out and know what I want to do.) My hope is that as I make more and more decisions based on my own reason and instinct and motives, and as life gets better for me (because it feels a whole lot better than it did before), I will reinforce this new way of living and it will come more naturally. Already I see myself demanding it more. When I feel someone&#8217;s &#8220;wise counsel&#8221; turning into prescriptions or judgments, my insides twist and I start to back away. Eventually, I hope to live my life without struggling with feeling guilty for being &#8220;selfish&#8221;. You can count me as one person you have helped re-teach away from the old system.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: molly</title>
		<link>http://soulation.org/breakfastreading/2011/10/choosing-to-live.html#comment-750</link>
		<dc:creator>molly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Oct 2011 21:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soulation.org/breakfastreading/?p=1425#comment-750</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Another book I&#039;ve been enjoying lately is Byron Katie&#039;s stuff.  You can check her out on Amazon and see what you think (good ratings)! She has one book specifically on relationships...might be incredibly helpful.  I wished I had read it a long long time ago.  

(PS. I love my friend Ann Voskamp and her writings, of course,  but in a situation where a person is married to someone abusive, I&#039;m not sure that a book about gratitude will be the best choice, IF the person will misapply the message by thinking they should resign themselves to their &quot;fate&quot; and just be grateful for what they DO have.  You know your friend better than I do, so you can be the judge of how she might take the book).  

If her husband doesn&#039;t want a sponsor, a counselor, go to AA meetings, etc...then your friend needs to accept that.  Currently....Her husband doesn&#039;t want to get better right now.  That is his choice.  Its his life, so he gets to make the decision about how he wants to live it.  

She has her own life to make decisions about.  Her life won&#039;t get better if she is ruminating about how rotten he is, or wondering why *he* won&#039;t change, or trying to figure out what will make *him* better.  Her choice is about *her* life.  

So her question then becomes, &quot;Do *I* want to live with someone who abuses substances in a way that hurts his family, is mentally ill but doesn&#039;t want take a proactive/active approach to mental health recovery and/or stabilization, etc?&quot;

Right now, she is answering yes.  

And that is her choice.  Sheesh, it&#039;s a really powerful discovery to realize that we even HAVE a choice.  As Christian women, most of us were groomed to believe we didn&#039;t have a choice at all.  Once you get married, you are (in effect) a prisoner to your husband&#039;s behavior.  If Debi Pearl and her ilk are to be believed, you are even RESPONSIBLE for your husband&#039;s behavior.  They would say that if only this woman would submit more, work harder, be sweeter, her husband would change...or, that she should accept her husband as her cross and bear it sweetly. 

(I do not have words to describe how horrible this advice is...but it is, unfortunately, very popular in some Christian circles, and is the kind of instruction/advice that these women get if they are brave enough to take their marriage difficulties to their pastor or to a church elder). 

I think such advice is a gross misunderstanding and misapplication of what it means to be walking in God&#039;s love and grace.  Walking in God&#039;s love and grace means this woman is not a prisoner at all!  She isn&#039;t a prisoner to past mistakes.  She isn&#039;t a prisoner to today&#039;s mistakes.   She gets to choose what her life looks like.  She gets to decide what a healthy life might look like for her children.  

Right now, she is choosing to be in a marriage with someone who is simply not able to be a healthy life partner.  She is choosing to keep her kids in a home with a person who is simply not currently capable of being a healthy father.  

That is her choice...today.  

And she can keep making that same choice, or she can start making different choices.  It&#039;s up to her.  

I lived much of my adult Christian life not realizing that *I* had choices.  (Which is a bad thing, no matter what, but it can be *extremely* difficult, dangerous, and destructive if you are partnered with someone who is abusive, mentally ill or lost in substance abuse [whether they are your pastor, your spouse, your parent, your best friend).  

We spent all this theological time learning about how unworthy and awful we are...and how we therefore NEEDED to submit our wills to those God had set as spiritual leaders over us.  Christian women who are taught &quot;Biblical patriarchy/complementarianism&quot; stuff get this all the time, but so do many church-goers who are in spiritually abusive churches or have spiritually abusive parents.  

I lived much of my adult Christian life being fed a bunch of lies about what Christian womanhood looked like (and not only was I fed them, but I helped pass them along---something I deeply regret).  :(  

Discovering that I have choices...that it is *my* life...wow.  WOW.  That was and continues to be an amazing discovery.  This day is a gift to me from God.  I can do with it what I will.  I can make of it what I will.  I am a prisoner to no one.  I am a victim of no one.  I am the owner of my own life.  JOY!  :) 

If I could give your friend one thing, I would give her that inward discovery.  But I can&#039;t give her anything.  She has to discover it for herself.  And...she probably will.  :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another book I&#8217;ve been enjoying lately is Byron Katie&#8217;s stuff.  You can check her out on Amazon and see what you think (good ratings)! She has one book specifically on relationships&#8230;might be incredibly helpful.  I wished I had read it a long long time ago.  </p>
<p>(PS. I love my friend Ann Voskamp and her writings, of course,  but in a situation where a person is married to someone abusive, I&#8217;m not sure that a book about gratitude will be the best choice, IF the person will misapply the message by thinking they should resign themselves to their &#8220;fate&#8221; and just be grateful for what they DO have.  You know your friend better than I do, so you can be the judge of how she might take the book).  </p>
<p>If her husband doesn&#8217;t want a sponsor, a counselor, go to AA meetings, etc&#8230;then your friend needs to accept that.  Currently&#8230;.Her husband doesn&#8217;t want to get better right now.  That is his choice.  Its his life, so he gets to make the decision about how he wants to live it.  </p>
<p>She has her own life to make decisions about.  Her life won&#8217;t get better if she is ruminating about how rotten he is, or wondering why *he* won&#8217;t change, or trying to figure out what will make *him* better.  Her choice is about *her* life.  </p>
<p>So her question then becomes, &#8220;Do *I* want to live with someone who abuses substances in a way that hurts his family, is mentally ill but doesn&#8217;t want take a proactive/active approach to mental health recovery and/or stabilization, etc?&#8221;</p>
<p>Right now, she is answering yes.  </p>
<p>And that is her choice.  Sheesh, it&#8217;s a really powerful discovery to realize that we even HAVE a choice.  As Christian women, most of us were groomed to believe we didn&#8217;t have a choice at all.  Once you get married, you are (in effect) a prisoner to your husband&#8217;s behavior.  If Debi Pearl and her ilk are to be believed, you are even RESPONSIBLE for your husband&#8217;s behavior.  They would say that if only this woman would submit more, work harder, be sweeter, her husband would change&#8230;or, that she should accept her husband as her cross and bear it sweetly. </p>
<p>(I do not have words to describe how horrible this advice is&#8230;but it is, unfortunately, very popular in some Christian circles, and is the kind of instruction/advice that these women get if they are brave enough to take their marriage difficulties to their pastor or to a church elder). </p>
<p>I think such advice is a gross misunderstanding and misapplication of what it means to be walking in God&#8217;s love and grace.  Walking in God&#8217;s love and grace means this woman is not a prisoner at all!  She isn&#8217;t a prisoner to past mistakes.  She isn&#8217;t a prisoner to today&#8217;s mistakes.   She gets to choose what her life looks like.  She gets to decide what a healthy life might look like for her children.  </p>
<p>Right now, she is choosing to be in a marriage with someone who is simply not able to be a healthy life partner.  She is choosing to keep her kids in a home with a person who is simply not currently capable of being a healthy father.  </p>
<p>That is her choice&#8230;today.  </p>
<p>And she can keep making that same choice, or she can start making different choices.  It&#8217;s up to her.  </p>
<p>I lived much of my adult Christian life not realizing that *I* had choices.  (Which is a bad thing, no matter what, but it can be *extremely* difficult, dangerous, and destructive if you are partnered with someone who is abusive, mentally ill or lost in substance abuse [whether they are your pastor, your spouse, your parent, your best friend).  </p>
<p>We spent all this theological time learning about how unworthy and awful we are&#8230;and how we therefore NEEDED to submit our wills to those God had set as spiritual leaders over us.  Christian women who are taught &#8220;Biblical patriarchy/complementarianism&#8221; stuff get this all the time, but so do many church-goers who are in spiritually abusive churches or have spiritually abusive parents.  </p>
<p>I lived much of my adult Christian life being fed a bunch of lies about what Christian womanhood looked like (and not only was I fed them, but I helped pass them along&#8212;something I deeply regret).  <img src='http://soulation.org/breakfastreading/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' />   </p>
<p>Discovering that I have choices&#8230;that it is *my* life&#8230;wow.  WOW.  That was and continues to be an amazing discovery.  This day is a gift to me from God.  I can do with it what I will.  I can make of it what I will.  I am a prisoner to no one.  I am a victim of no one.  I am the owner of my own life.  JOY!  <img src='http://soulation.org/breakfastreading/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>If I could give your friend one thing, I would give her that inward discovery.  But I can&#8217;t give her anything.  She has to discover it for herself.  And&#8230;she probably will.  <img src='http://soulation.org/breakfastreading/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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