When Glenn and I got married a dozen years ago, like any other bride and groom, we brought expectations into the marriage — spoken and unspoken, conscious and unconscious. Some of those expectations we are just lately discussing between ourselves.
Earlier this summer, driving home after celebrating Canada Day with the family, he and I had a brief, revealing talk. It was just the week after our church here announced that women would not be allowed to teach mixed adult groups, per the board’s understanding of biblical injunctions on the matter.
I was driving.
“So, I’ve been thinking the last couple months,” I started. “Do you think some of the early frustration in our marriage resulted from the conflict between my expectations and yours in this area of the woman ‘following’ the man and being ‘submissive’ to him?” It was a totally new thought to me, considered only after the role of women in the church began being discussed this year.
“Oh yeah,” he answered.
“Really?” I was surprised. “When did you first start thinking this?”
“Probably four or five years ago.”
I nearly drove off the road.
As we have continued the conversation, we retraced some of our early days together. Although I had not entirely bought into the example of “submission” that permeated my denomination, I had nonetheless entered marriage intent on not “usurping” my new husband’s “authority.” And, after all, if I were submissive to God first, then being submissive to my husband should naturally follow (or so I had been told).
Even with those good intentions motivating me, I began nonetheless to surprise my husband with some of my reactions during our early years together. When a conflict, or even just a potential conflict, occurred, I would display a knee-jerk reaction to what I expected would be Glenn’s response. Would he not act as most men in the independent, fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) tradition? Would he not either “put me in my place” (and wouldn’t he have the Biblical right to do so?) or patronize me (little pat on the head kind of thing; ‘isn’t she cute’ or ‘she’s a joy to live with’)? Before he had the chance to take action and do either, I would be already apologizing (getting back in my biblical place) or gritting my teeth (preparing to be patronized). These reactions baffled him, being alien to his own upbringing in a more egalitarian family, where both his parents were equal players on the mission field and in their marriage. Because Glenn never has sought to “put me in my place” or to patronize me, I gradually outgrew that knee-jerk response.
Since we spent our first years of marriage on a mission field ourselves, teaching at an international Christian school in Southeast Asia, we lived and worked and loved in an environment similar to the one in which Glenn grew up, with more examples of egalitarian marriages. However, when we moved back to North America, we spent more time in my home culture, seeing churches in the IFB tradition when visiting family and friends. Glenn began putting together the pieces of my upbringing, my home culture, and the biblical teaching I’d received into the context of our marriage and especially our first years together.
Four or five years later, I have caught up with him in processing this, starting there, within our own marriage and working outward in understanding the possibilities in the biblical roles of women, of men.
So, where am I now?
Well, I started studying the complementarian line and was told by some, “It all comes down to the authority of the bible. Will you obey what the bible says?” Once again, there was almost a hint of panic in my first response — of course I want to obey the bible! But wait a minute … is this the bible saying it, or a person claiming the bible says it? And can’t I look into it either way?
Then I started looking into the egalitarian line and was told by some, “Egalitarians are smarter and more articulate,” descriptive words which can, and do, act as Sirens on me. But wait a minute … it isn’t about who sounds more literate. And shouldn’t I try to check their theology, anyway, even if it sounds quite smart?
Frankly, I’m still unpacking what I was taught about submission and women for so many years. I’m looking at my marriage with fresh eyes. And I’ve got a stack of books for reading:
The complementarian Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.
Its answering egalitarian book Discovering Biblical Equality.
Even Man and Woman, One in Christ: An Exegetical and Theological Study of Paul’s Letters.
And a book for rereading, Jonalyn Fincher’s Ruby Slippers: How the Soul of a Woman Brings Her Home.
I am also, as ever, still in the bible, daily going there to continue growing in freedom and understanding in Christ.
I am no longer a reluctant complementarian.
I am not a poster girl for the egalitarians, either, not at this point.
I am a human who wants to grow through this study, to grow in understanding of God and his ways — without fear of the opinion of others — and to see his possibilities for me.
Editor’s Note: This is the finale of a 3-part series. The first — “I think it’s broken” — detailed Susan’s wrestling with gender in the church. The second explored the makings of a reluctant complementarian.
__________
Image credit: inspiredbycake.blogspot.ca, content.usatoday.com,
and theincorrigiblegingers.com


perfect =)
Thanks, man.
It’s hard to fathom some times what another person is dealing with on this side of a deep gorge. Thanks for helping us on the other side.
Very welcome. Didn’t realize this would necessarily give you two insight, too, but then, you’re not always in the room when Glenn & I have our long, interesting discussions.
So, yes–yes. This is where I’m coming from…
How did you get inside my brain all the way from Canada?! This is great. I’m just finishing up Ruby Slippers. And as someone born & bred and still living in the Bible belt, I really hope we can get more Christians discussing these important concepts with freedom and depth.
Marlo, Right. On.
I was just at a women’s retreat this past weekend, got to perform some pieces before the main speaker, and was a little appalled to discover that one of the session options in the afternoon included an hour-long study on marriage–I won’t name it–but it it heavily and unhelpfully complementarian. In fact, a friend of mine in Virginia is contemplating leaving her church after they hosted a weekend-long retreat with that very topic and she saw the patriarchal, simplistic complementarianism of her church leaders & church body revealed for the first time. Her marriage does not fit that stereotype, not a bit…Anyway, I went to a different session in the afternoon but was contemplating going and raising a bit of a ruckus in that session. (Had I not been performing and just been an attendee, and not something of a guest, I might have, but I don’t know if I’m quite there yet to be challenging that viewpoint articulately.
NEXT TIME, I will be ready, Lord willing.
Your comment resonates with me, Marlo: we need to provide a safe place for believers to discuss these concepts–and there is a place for them, yes-with freedom, depth, and love. Speaking the truth in love: don’t leave out either part.
Glad you’re reading Ruby Slippers. What a great book. There it is, on my shelf, ready for another reread….
Marlo, send them here!
This is the safest place I know of online that allows for exploring serious spiritual and biblical issues without flaming and without caricaturing the different points of view. Tell your friends that if they are really serious about exploring where the real issues lie in these discussions to come read Susan’s posts and then offer up what they have found. The only way to foster a safe community is to create it and then emulate humility, respect, and sound reasoning!
“Isn’t she a joy to live with?” Oh Susan, you have me laughing aloud in my office.
Thank you for this. And I hope you’ll keep us posted after you slog your way through all those books.
I, for one, am loving being part of your cheering squad, sassy skirt and pom-poms and everything!
Now, Jonalyn, those two statements I actually heard from upstanding men (Sunday School teachers, deacons) in churches I grew up in. Not making any part like that up. And aren’t they just teeth-clenchers?
Yes, after I read and cogitate and all that, I’ll undoubtedly feel the urge to write more about it. (Already I have more to say!)
Thanks for the cheers, and the freedom to study.
This is great, Susan. Are you going to maybe write more about your own process in the future?
There’s a quote from C.S. Lewis I shared with a friend of mine who is slowly coming out of a very patriarchal way of living in marriage for the last 13 years: “If only the will to walk is there, He is pleased even with their stumbles.” – C S Lewis
Thanks, Mandy. I think I’ll jolly well have to write more about it down the road. For now, I’d like to step out of the spotlight and do some quiet studying w/out an agenda. Just studying to understand. I’ve come a long way just in the last few months with being willing to stick my neck out on this topic.
I didn’t even leave a comment or “like” a guest post on this topic in the spring, “Gender Division Divides the Church” http://soulation.org/breakfastreading/?p=2705 because that was dangerous ground and I didn’t want to go there! Not publicly anyway, just wanted to keep sailing below the radar…and then, this. My church’s collective decision on women’s role in leadership positions. And I was emboldened by the Spirit, certainly not my choice, to pipe up.
Thanks for the Lewis quote. A lot of it feels like stumbling, but I am trying to walk well.
Love the continuation of your journey! I just smile reading this as my husband and I have had similar discussions. I remember when we were first married I brought him his food and ironed his clothes because that is how his mom did things and I thought that is how a “good little wife” should behave. The funny thing is that I grew up in a more egalitarian home and my husband grew up in a complementarian home. I remember him asking me one time why on earth did I iron his clothes when I hated doing it so very much. I just looked at him and said I thought he expected me too;) He just smiled and told me that I don’t need to do anything for him unless I want to or liked to do it. He did not have expectations on my wifely duties. We have grown and learned through this and I have become myself and he himself, rather than who we think we should be based on others expectations.
We recently had another discussion about this topic as Jonalyn had posted a blog about the dance of man and woman. I asked him what he was, Comlementarian or egalitarian. He said he leans towards Egalitarianism but is still studying through a few passages that he thinks lend them selves to complementarianism in a few ways. He then looked at me and said, “In the end does it really matter? Don’t you think we practice it well!” I certainly agree that whatever we are, I am thankful that my husband and I practice it well and are constantly learning and reevaluating our roles as our family grows and changes.
Danielle, when you asked your husband about whether he was complementarian or egalitarian, did you ask specifically about marriage or church? Because those would be two different issues. Some fall much more egalitarian in one or the other (at first).
I love how you’ve described your marriage. In practicality, you’ve described an egalitarian one… at least the loudest complementarian spokesmen would not like that those conditions.
They even have degrees in complementarian seminaries that, while the husband is off learning theology, the wife is taking classes on how to be submissive and run the house within prescribed roles…
Hey, Danielle, I love what you’ve written here; it echoes a lot of my sentiments in these posts.
Good to know others are thinking through passages in Scripture and also through their past histories and present situations.
Dale, you make a good point there: complementarian/egalitarian in marriage, or in church. I find that I have stepped firmly away from complementarianism in marriage but am working hard at hammering out my views of what Scripture says about roles in church.
It’s GOOD–it’s amazing–to have a spouse who wants to love God well and to support you loving God well, too. In the middle of working on these posts, Glenn came to me one day and said, “You know, I’ve been thinking about the greatest thing I could do for you.” Intrigued, I stopped and listened intently. “The greatest thing I can do for you is to help you love and rely on God. I can’t promise you I’ll be here tomorrow, but I know God will be here for you. That is, really, the greatest thing I could ever do for you.”
Whatever camp you’re in on this issue…that’s real; that’s good.
Oh yes, and Dale, I am appalled at a seminary offering a Betty Crocker-Proverbs 31-Mary & Martha degree.
Tell me you’re kidding.
Tell me it’s one of those urban legends like pink & blue sidewalks.
Tell me there’s no such thing…
Ground zero of complementarianism (Southern Baptist Theological Seminary who also runs CBMW who are behind “Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood) has a “Seminary Wives Institute” (http://www.sbts.edu/women/seminary-wives-institute). Lots of courses on conflict resolution and “marriage and family.” They have also have courses on studying the Bible as well as becoming a woman leader of only other women… I’ve heard some reports on this institute and yeah, a Mary & Martha degree to “assist” their husbands in ministry is a good term for it. You can read the description in the link above.
I love what Glenn said. And I have to say here, just for clarity, on a complementarian view, that is the “role” of the man. An egalitarian view also praises and values this AND also praises the wife returning the favor, helping her man love and rely on God. Even when you put marriage “roles” aside, isn’t this what the Body of Christ is supposed to do to one another (do a study of all the “one another” verses in the NT and it’s amazing how much spiritual guidance and encouragement we’re to give one another no matter our sex).
As for egalitarianism in the church, I have come to believe that often the most “sacred” church offices are not actually NT offices but ones that have been created over time. For instance, a “senior pastor.” Many, many scholars do not believe there is such a thing. A plurality of elders organizing the assembly is the growing consensus. Yet, the primary objection I hear many complementarians make on the street is that they believe women can hold any office in a church but for the “senior pastor.” And I think over time, we’ll come to see that whatever that stained glass ceiling is, it was wrongly applied here. Others may land in the arena that only men can be elders and that would be a different category to wrestle with… but the sacred senior pastor position and the sacred pulpit are to, on my own view, things that emerged through church history that has unnecessarily overshadowed the actual issues the church is facing when it comes to the sexes.
And then we have the confusion over the differences of “preaching,” “teaching,” and “sharing”… which also overshadows the discussion too frequently.
Susan, bravo on this three part series. Thanks for drawing readers into this tough subject. I commend you for your transparency, not only in the search, but letting us into stories of your own community and marriage. (I thank Glenn too!).
By all means, I wish more would seek these things out, regardless of which side is more articulate and which side has more centuries behind it. Truth cares little about those two things.
Most fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals have had to take this journey, if they have become egalitarian. What is sad to me in the larger discussion is that those who have done the hard work of study and landed on the non-traditioal side are often written off by the traditionalists as if the egalitarians been swayed by things other than the actual Text and research (“feminism” “worldiness” “compromise” etc). It’s easy to discount those who have already taken a point of view as “biased”. For some reason, in our culture, we value neutrality over conviction. While we all want to be psychologically unbiased in our searches on whatever topic, we cannot remain rationally unbiased. Reason and common sense don’t allow it. Thanks for demonstrating that in your life and writing!
Dale (& Jonalyn), I have to thank you both, too, for letting me, the beginner, write about it…with no guarantee of where I would ‘end up.’ (Even though I sort of cheated and didn’t declare myself here at the end of part 3; I’m still working through parts.) You both practice exactly what Soulation preaches–you meet people where they are, and you encourage them to become appropriately human.
Throughout this time, these many months leading up to deciding to study the topic rather publicly, I’ve had a feeling like we had at college. The sense that there is more–much, much more–to life in Christ than ‘this’. I could get a whiff of it, a breeze from that direction, but I hadn’t really followed it before. Still, the sense that a vibrant, colorful MORE awaited (was actually waiting for me!) became more and more tangible as things got more and more challenging here in our community.
And when the Holy Spirit did, in fact, reveal that quiet Saturday afternoon that there truly WAS more, I stepped out and haven’t tried to crawl back under the radar since.
There’s more; there’s more; there’s more.
I am more than ever convinced of this.
Thanks for your words of affirmation.
“There is more” that is a lovely new way for me to describe the walk with the God of Israel.
Glad you shared this, Susan. And I’m glad you find us practicing what we preach. That makes me glad.
Yes, always more! An echo of further up…!
That’s a comment I hear from time to time from people who come to Soulation… they discover “the more”! Your words fall on receiving ears. Thanks for the encouragement and friendship.
I hear you on the feeling we had a college… What is behind the curtain that nobody wants us to see? And why are we not to see it?
Now I’ve been pondering this….
Aren’t you going to have to become egalitarian because you must please/obey/pick-another-of-those-lovely-verbs your egalitarian husband?
OR you could remain a reluctant complementarian and grieve your egalitarian husband and thus nullify your complementarianism and be….egalitarian?
Hmmm…
Apparently this has been rather seriously addressed in other (complementarian) blogs.
Glenn actually ran across them, showed them to me, and I had some pretty ripe things to say about it all.
No kidding.
R E A L L Y
Mmm hmm.
By the by, I seem never to have listened to those “joy to live with” men you reference even though I know I was around them at some point. Can’t say I regret that.
I know you weren’t in one of the Sunday School classes where the “joy to live with” occurred, not at the time. You were later, and we both endured and deflected the “pat on the head” stuff that sometimes happened between the men and women at gatherings.
I’m in a very similar place on this topic. Thank you for sharing and for the references! I would add Sarah Sumner’s Men and Women In The Church to your list. I haven’t read it yet, but it’s been recommended to me by several people.
Thanks for writing, Brenda, and for sharing Sarah’s book. Someone else recommended it. I think I’d better get a copy to read through!
I’ve enjoyed reading your posts! In my case, a complementarian (me) married a theoretical complementarian who functioned like an egalitarian. Interesting discussions are happening in my house these days! We’ve both changed our philosophy since getting married, and are seriously discussing doing a vow renewal while tweaking our vows to include equality and exclude gender discrimination. I don’t like cringing inside as I read my vow to my husband! The thing I love about it the most is that now we have the freedom to discuss.
Hey, Savvy, thanks for chiming in here. Glad your house contains interesting discussions these days, too! I believe many Christian couples are processing through this topic right now. Yes, I understand about cringing as the vow got read (or parts of it).
Exactly, the freedom to discuss. That kind of freedom should be found in every godly marriage. And it is wonderful!
Thanks for adding to the discussion here.
Savvy–love the vow tweaking idea =). I’m tempted to tease my wife with it, and tell her I want to consider doing a vow renewal, but this time she has to say she’ll obey me =).
Interesting read, Susan! I just read your “Lightening the Load” and just had to follow your link back here.
My husband & I had similar background differences to you guys.
It was over the year of 2012 I started nailing this stuff down, too. (Weird! …and freeing!)
A big jumping point for me was when Rachel Held Evans hosted a blog event on Marriage Mutuality. AWESOME stuff that really helped me. But I still didn’t feel like I was believing what the Bible said, with some of my new thinking.
Then, a big resting point for me was Sarah & Jim Sumners book, “Just How Married do you Want to Be?” -practicing oneness in marriage-
That book blew my mind. I go back and read bits and pieces of it all the time. And, I pass it out to everyone. I bought 5 copies and they are all gone, to other homes, except my own worn copy. Other people aren’t reading as fast as I wanted them to. I might buy more, so I can keep sharing them. Ha!
Well, thank you for that, Erin, and thanks for commenting here. So 2012 was rather pivotal for you, too, eh? I have yet to run across the Sumners book–but have had it plugged–and have had R. H. Evans’s name pop up too often in the recent weeks to ignore. Must get a copy of her book, too. (That’s GREAT that you hand out copies of books that have helped you..have you read Jonalyn’s book “Ruby Slippers”? Worth passing around!)
Thanks for affirmation from someone w/ a similar background & marriage situation. It helps.
I did a pass around of Ruby Slippers, too! I actually just had some gals over to my house last night for dinner and discussion of the book. We a good talk, for sure!
Bless you Susan!
Hey, that’s good to hear, Erin! A good talk…in community…wonderful stuff. Thanks for letting us know.
Susan, I’ve written a lot of posts about marriage on my blog. But, here’s one that I wrote about trying to figure out this whole comp vs. egal stuff. I wrote this one last summer for Rachel’s mutuality blog week.
http://adamshome.blogspot.com/2012/06/marriage-changed-my-view-of-marriage.html
Erin, thanks for the link. I’ve just read your fine post and wanted to put here what I really, really appreciated and what jumped out at me–
You wrote, “If I felt like I was catching up to him should I be poking him a bit
just to make sure he stays out in front?”
–Right on. I strongly relate to this. If the man, in the biblical tradition in which I was raised and churched, is supposed to be ‘out there’ somewhere, ‘in front’, and the woman believes she’s keeping pace with him spiritually, shouldn’t she do this very thing. Give him a wee poke, just to make sure he’s actually still ‘in the lead.’ Despite evidence to the contrary, this can be considered being ‘submissive’ in the same circles.
You wrote, “Does my husband lead me & our home toward Christ? Yes.
But I lead him & our home toward Christ, too.
If I want to pray with my husband, I ask him.
It is okay. I don’t have to wait for him & pray that he will want to pray with me.”
–I firmly agree that this is good and true thinking. Both the husband and the wife, both the dad and the mom, lead each other and the home toward Christ. And, if that be true (I believe it is), then the wife and the mom can, in the right spirit, ask her husband to pray with her. Or ask her husband to start up family devotions and bible reading. Or anything. There should be nothing considered “off limits” for the two to bring up with each other since they are both leaders in the home. However, I used to think the woman had better not step out and ask the man to pray or lead family devotions, and I prayed for some of this stuff myself in our marriage during busy times when it was not happening. Then, during the past year, I have found great freedom (through unpacking a lot of this teaching in my past and searching it with fresh eyes) in also looking at my husband as my equal (he, as your husband sounds, always viewed me as his equal and partner) and talking to him about praying, bible reading, you name it. My husband’s response, “Well, why wouldn’t you just talk to me about it?”
Precisely.
Thanks very much for adding your voice (& encouragement!) here.
Long story short: We tried complementarianism because we thought it was the only way acceptable in a Christian home. We were miserable for three years and almost divorced. We now attend a church that teaches egalitarianism in both the home and church, and we’re very happy. We still have some complementarian friends who will periodically tell me “You know you’re not REALLY happy” because they feel that Satan is deceiving us into an illusion of happiness. This “illusion” has lasted over twelve years.
Love your comment here, Jen. Thanks for writing in. Just had a close friend say last week, almost word for word, what you’ve written here. They tried a hard-core complementarianism in their marriage (reference the slim book, “Me? Obey Him?”) and came to the edge of divorce. Since being set free from the lies they were believing and embracing an egalitarian approach to marriage, they have both rediscovered their abiding love for each other and exprienced marriage deeply and truly. And, occasionally, they’ll get flak, too. “Well, you know, you may be happy, but we [complementarians] are RIGHT.”
Thanks for joining the conversation here.