Since the convention is over, I thought I’d give a brief response/opinion on your question so interested readers get some opinion on them. By no means exhaustive, but a short start.

1. It all depends on what one means by ‘subjective.’ That there are differences, on my view, would not mean subjective. A large family may all have the same parents, but each kid different color hair. That’s allowed to remain in the family.

I do hope Augustine’s famous line gets back up into public awareness: in essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.

We need to work on the ‘charity’ side more than the denominational side, I think. Those on the outside must also seek to understand why there are denominations before they cast stones. After all, I don’t know any view that doesn’t have variations, be it Buddhism, Islam, Secularism, Feminism. Even Mormonism, whose large argument for their validity is their unity, has many factions (that they don’t want us to know about).

2. If Jesus is impotent, then the question is valid. But I have largely found Jesus untried by others. They think they have encountered Jesus by going to a church service or growing up in a “Christian” home. Few actually do the harder work of getting into Scripture and reading historical writers of those who do have a relationships with Jesus. The Bible is a smart book!

After all, wouldn’t you say your relationship with Jesus something no other religion can offer? I would. I’ve honestly sought out the others and find them wanting at some point.

I’m saddened how “Christianity” has been reduced to church attendance, moralisms, and political affiliations. “Buddhism” on the other hand gets associated with peace, meditation, and well-being. What is odd to me is how Christianity has all those same ‘features’ Buddhism has of meditation, body health, environmental awareness, peace. Only instead of emptying your mind of goodness, as Buddhism teaches in meditation, you fill your mind with goodness in Christianity. And Buddhism is also political, Tibet has shown us that.

A lot of issues people pin in Christianity are human problems in every place we find humans. We can’t just a thing by its abuses. Most attacks on Jesus are leveled at those who abuse him. Jesus actually shines quite well, I find, and each is responsible for himself in how they follow.

Also, many accusations leveled against Jesus are usually just straw-men. How we get people to see beyond the straw-men is difficult. But sometimes that’s their problem, not mine.

3. I find it unfortunate when people say a certain candidate is on God’s side. I, too, found the split in election interest between Christians interesting too.

In general, we should vote with wisdom and our conscience. Christians will disagree and sometimes that’s okay. The issues are more complex than the ads and stump speeches let on. What is discouraging to me is how many people actually depend on the debates and the advertising to make their vote.

What is further discouraging to me is the American public. They were so frenzied for their candidate in this election. They didn’t see that both of them were really mediocre. They can vote for one or the other, but the unwarranted enthusiasm was, well, frightening. Don’t we have sanity in these matters? Aren’t we thoughtful? Are we just going for celebrity status? Can’t we all say, “Well, he’s not the best that I wish we could get, but it’s the best we have for now. So let’s vote as citizens according to our consciences and then do our own parts locally…”?

I’m not sure the American public, much less the evangelical public, can do that. We aren’t trained for it. We largely mimic our host culture.

4. This question ties into three for me. We are a celebrity culture today. We love to be entertained. And we think that because someone is popular than they must be an expert.

A good example of this is how often celebrities are asked for their opinion on foreign affairs. What do they know? They memorize and recite the scripts of someone else! At least get the opinion of the script writer! I find the opinion of celebrities rather dubious.

So it goes with celebrity preachers. If the public only know how much money some of these Christian celebrities charge for their bookings!! I’m amazed. And you could get lesser-knowns who can do just as well but don’t draw the large crowds. It makes you wonder if people get celebrity pastors because of their content or because they will draw a lot of tickets at the door.

This is the ugly underbelly of the pop-culture church. And this is, in my opinion, largely what the thinking world finds repulsive.

I do too. If this was the kingdom of God, I’d likely not be a follower of Jesus. Thankfully, God has given us his Scripture and a long history to reflect on and his presence to enjoy despite all the noise. And others who share a deeper vision that we can form community with.

5. I don’t think there are that many serious followers of Jesus. There’s lots of followers of Jesus-trends. There’s lot of “worship experiences.” There’s lots of converts (I guess). But how many of them chose Jesus because he offered a better life? How many are willing to follow him into that better life? Most are like sheep. They believe what they are told from the podium at the front. They are indoctrinated by ‘lite’ or ‘positive’ Christian radio. But not very many are robust followers. Not many can take a stand for what they believe in. Not many are living the good life. They are moral, but not good.

Following Jesus takes work. Expanding your soul in imaginative, culturally savvy, intelligent ways, takes readjusting your lifestyle, learning to be quiet, learning to listen, learning to grow more human as you formulate your own opinion and become a leader in your sphere of influence. It means practicing Christian meditation, well-being, peacemaking, radical-love (which is just real love but we don’t understand real love, we we have to call it ‘radical’…LOL)

Most people are like sheep. I think Jesus is calling us all to be little shepherds under him, inviting others into the good life, not just inviting them to heaven.

Okay, those are a few ideas. We could talk about this for hours! Maybe next time we’re in Grand Rapids!

Since the convention is over, I thought I’d give a brief response/opinion on your question so interested readers get some opinion on them. By no means exhaustive, but a short start.

1. It all depends on what one means by ‘subjective.’ That there are differences, on my view, would not mean subjective. A large family may all have the same parents, but each kid different color hair. That’s allowed to remain in the family.

I do hope Augustine’s famous line gets back up into public awareness: in essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.

We need to work on the ‘charity’ side more than the denominational side, I think. Those on the outside must also seek to understand why there are denominations before they cast stones. After all, I don’t know any view that doesn’t have variations, be it Buddhism, Islam, Secularism, Feminism. Even Mormonism, whose large argument for their validity is their unity, has many factions (that they don’t want us to know about).

2. If Jesus is impotent, then the question is valid. But I have largely found Jesus untried by others. They think they have encountered Jesus by going to a church service or growing up in a “Christian” home. Few actually do the harder work of getting into Scripture and reading historical writers of those who do have a relationships with Jesus. The Bible is a smart book!

After all, wouldn’t you say your relationship with Jesus something no other religion can offer? I would. I’ve honestly sought out the others and find them wanting at some point.

I’m saddened how “Christianity” has been reduced to church attendance, moralisms, and political affiliations. “Buddhism” on the other hand gets associated with peace, meditation, and well-being. What is odd to me is how Christianity has all those same ‘features’ Buddhism has of meditation, body health, environmental awareness, peace. Only instead of emptying your mind of goodness, as Buddhism teaches in meditation, you fill your mind with goodness in Christianity. And Buddhism is also political, Tibet has shown us that.

A lot of issues people pin in Christianity are human problems in every place we find humans. We can’t just a thing by its abuses. Most attacks on Jesus are leveled at those who abuse him. Jesus actually shines quite well, I find, and each is responsible for himself in how they follow.

Also, many accusations leveled against Jesus are usually just straw-men. How we get people to see beyond the straw-men is difficult. But sometimes that’s their problem, not mine.

3. I find it unfortunate when people say a certain candidate is on God’s side. I, too, found the split in election interest between Christians interesting too.

In general, we should vote with wisdom and our conscience. Christians will disagree and sometimes that’s okay. The issues are more complex than the ads and stump speeches let on. What is discouraging to me is how many people actually depend on the debates and the advertising to make their vote.

What is further discouraging to me is the American public. They were so frenzied for their candidate in this election. They didn’t see that both of them were really mediocre. They can vote for one or the other, but the unwarranted enthusiasm was, well, frightening. Don’t we have sanity in these matters? Aren’t we thoughtful? Are we just going for celebrity status? Can’t we all say, “Well, he’s not the best that I wish we could get, but it’s the best we have for now. So let’s vote as citizens according to our consciences and then do our own parts locally…”?

I’m not sure the American public, much less the evangelical public, can do that. We aren’t trained for it. We largely mimic our host culture.

4. This question ties into three for me. We are a celebrity culture today. We love to be entertained. And we think that because someone is popular than they must be an expert.

A good example of this is how often celebrities are asked for their opinion on foreign affairs. What do they know? They memorize and recite the scripts of someone else! At least get the opinion of the script writer! I find the opinion of celebrities rather dubious.

So it goes with celebrity preachers. If the public only know how much money some of these Christian celebrities charge for their bookings!! I’m amazed. And you could get lesser-knowns who can do just as well but don’t draw the large crowds. It makes you wonder if people get celebrity pastors because of their content or because they will draw a lot of tickets at the door.

This is the ugly underbelly of the pop-culture church. And this is, in my opinion, largely what the thinking world finds repulsive.

I do too. If this was the kingdom of God, I’d likely not be a follower of Jesus. Thankfully, God has given us his Scripture and a long history to reflect on and his presence to enjoy despite all the noise. And others who share a deeper vision that we can form community with.

5. I don’t think there are that many serious followers of Jesus. There’s lots of followers of Jesus-trends. There’s lot of “worship experiences.” There’s lots of converts (I guess). But how many of them chose Jesus because he offered a better life? How many are willing to follow him into that better life? Most are like sheep. They believe what they are told from the podium at the front. They are indoctrinated by ‘lite’ or ‘positive’ Christian radio. But not very many are robust followers. Not many can take a stand for what they believe in. Not many are living the good life. They are moral, but not good.

Following Jesus takes work. Expanding your soul in imaginative, culturally savvy, intelligent ways, takes readjusting your lifestyle, learning to be quiet, learning to listen, learning to grow more human as you formulate your own opinion and become a leader in your sphere of influence. It means practicing Christian meditation, well-being, peacemaking, radical-love (which is just real love but we don’t understand real love, we we have to call it ‘radical’…LOL)

Most people are like sheep. I think Jesus is calling us all to be little shepherds under him, inviting others into the good life, not just inviting them to heaven.

Okay, those are a few ideas. We could talk about this for hours! Maybe next time we’re in Grand Rapids!

Glad to help… feel free to drop a line anytime.

Glad to help… feel free to drop a line anytime.

Yes, Amber is very bright. She’s a 16 year old graduating in ’09. She has yet to ask me a question that I have a “quick” answer for. This helps tremendously.

I appreciate the work you and your wife are doing.
I’ll continue to log on for good information.
Have a great day ~ Tracey

I have a few questions, overheard at coffee shops, asked in movies and books, and pelted at me via MySpace…

1. Why does Christianity seems to be as subjective a religion as any other?

By that, people mean given the various denominations (not all of which can be right), given the various leaders, both fallen and remaining (not all of whom can be right), given the various squabbles over version of the Bible (which assert not all of them can be right), given the growing number of memoir-like Christian books from so-called “emerging authors” that describe how burned out they are by Christians, churches, and Christianity…

When it’s added up, people (young and old alike) see Christians as flawed, confused, tired, angry, depressed, and doubting as anyone else in the world — sometimes more so than people in religions such as Buddhism which espouses calmness, balance, and acceptance of the moment, whatever it may be.

So their question is simple to grasp. But very difficult to answer: Is Christianity as subjective as it appears to be?

2. The obvious follow-up question is this: If Christianity appears to offer nothing I can’t get from other religions, why should I choose it?

This, of course, requires a very tough, honest answer that doesn’t reach for trite answers, platitudes, and Bible verses that require circular reasoning.

3. Thinking friends of mine (young and old alike) are truly that: thinking. They see Christians who plan to vote for Obama — even though he’s a socialist, is pro-abortion, who’s friends with angry, racist pastors, and who may or may not even be a U.S. citizen (according to the Berg vs. Obama lawsuit) — and Christians who plan to vote for McCain — even though he seems in favor of war, won’t close our borders to illegal aliens, and who seems to be a weak leader (and a very weak candidate). The two candidates are polar opposites. Yet, Christians support both, each side claiming to be doing what’s right in the eyes of God.

How is that possible? If it were two candidates separated by a matter of degree, no problem. They could understand Christians voting for either one. But people who observe this election, people who see how vastly different the candidates are, wonder how Christians can claim God is behind their choice either way.

So question #3 is this: What do you recommend Christians do during election cycles? Or, to put it another way, At what point do Christianity and politics part ways? What guidelines do you suggest for young people, especially, before they dive head-first into supporting candidates on either side?

4. Is it possible to judge a Christian teacher’s value/worth/rightness based on his/her popularity?

The heart of that question, expressed by many young people these days, touches on the Rob Bell phenomenon. Rob Bell writes books and creates short videos that are very long on image and, in the eyes of some, quite short on substance. Yet, his books sell like Kool-Aid on a marathon route. His Noomas are given end-cap placement in non-Christian book stores. His church bursts at the seems. His Love Wins bumper sticker is seen everywhere. He is, for lack of a better word, a phenomenon.

Some young people view Rob Bell’s success and equate it with a solid scriptural foundation. They see “mega-churches” and they wonder if a church’s size means what’s being taught in it is biblically sound.

Naturally, they want to be part of what’s cool, what’s hip, and what’s popular. So they’re drawn to mega churches and way-cool video clips.

Is it possible to equate size and popularity with sound biblical doctrine?

Last question…

5. There are supposedly zillions of Christians around the world, especially right here in the good old USA. Conservative talk-show hosts claim to have listenerships in the tens of millions. Rick Warren’s book The Purpose-Driven Life sold something like a trillion copies.

Question: Why does the world seem to be in continual decline if Christianity appears to be gaining so many adherents, to be so popular? (By the way, I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with Rob Bell.)

All of these questions are somewhat linked. They deal with subjectivity, a growing skepticism in the world, and the awareness that things seem to get worse even though Christianity seems to be more fashionable than ever before. To the casual observer that appears Christianity is toothless, ineffectual.

So…there you go.

Have at ‘em.

Cheers,

Bill

Thanks! And thanks for hanging on in our second seminar. We are encouraged that you enjoyed it (I told Jonalyn too). Gender is not an easy topic to discuss in today’s environment. There’s a lot of sacred cows mooing in the fields of our churches.

Thanks! And thanks for hanging on in our second seminar. We are encouraged that you enjoyed it (I told Jonalyn too). Gender is not an easy topic to discuss in today’s environment. There’s a lot of sacred cows mooing in the fields of our churches.

Thanks for saying so! I hope they let me do more workshops too. I did one in 2007 and got invited back for 2008. So at least I’m on the radar. Maybe even a pre-conference series would be good.

As for Amber’s questions, she’s bright! I’m assuming that isn’t her real name, so we’ll call her “Amber” for the sake of discussion.

She has thought well about doing things selflessly–helping those in need without the reward of praise.

I would say that is right on track with a missing piece at the end. When we do help people without praise, when we act selflessly out of love, this is being appropriately human. This, whether we know it or not at the time, is demonstrating what God is like because we are acting the way he acts.

Perhaps Amber doesn’t realize that every action we do is tied up with why we are made. We don’t just help people because they are need. We don’t just do ‘actions’ separated from real life or a larger story. We reach out to others because we are designed do this (and we often do it badly). Working with God to become the right kind of healthy person allows us to more freely reach out and love others. We are cooperating with his design for us. And this, in many ways, is doing it for God’s sake.

But actions can also include plural motives. If a drunken man came to my front door, I may be inclined to help him by inviting him in and giving him a place to rest. I am doing this for his sake. But I’m also doing it for my neighborhood’s sake, because who knows what kind of trouble he could be getting into and what damage he may cause to others. I could also be doing it for the town’s sake because, perhaps, the police who usually pick up such persons staggering down the street are involved in more important business. So in this sense we can have several ‘sakes’ for doing an action.

Taking it up a notch, the very same act could be for God’s sake too. Not only would I be fulfilling my design as an appropriate human person, but I’m also providing some love and kindness that this man needs. He cannot be healed by me alone. I’m only one mortal person. But in his inner-place, the place where only God sees, he is likely afraid and alone. And only God can help him there. For God’s sake, I become part of this man’s larger story and journey as he seeks to know who God is and grows into the design God has for him.

So that’s a way of thinking about it.

It is no surprise we see something like this in the Lord’s Prayer. “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” This is our prayer that God’s good will come about too, praying for his ‘sake.’ This is our prayer that the Master of Ceremonies who holds all things in his hands will have the final word and direct the final song. That all our actions and loves will ultimately work in this direction. It’s a compass for us to steer life and our decisions. It’s a fresh way to orient our choices.

Thoughts?

Thanks for saying so! I hope they let me do more workshops too. I did one in 2007 and got invited back for 2008. So at least I’m on the radar. Maybe even a pre-conference series would be good.

As for Amber’s questions, she’s bright! I’m assuming that isn’t her real name, so we’ll call her “Amber” for the sake of discussion.

She has thought well about doing things selflessly–helping those in need without the reward of praise.

I would say that is right on track with a missing piece at the end. When we do help people without praise, when we act selflessly out of love, this is being appropriately human. This, whether we know it or not at the time, is demonstrating what God is like because we are acting the way he acts.

Perhaps Amber doesn’t realize that every action we do is tied up with why we are made. We don’t just help people because they are need. We don’t just do ‘actions’ separated from real life or a larger story. We reach out to others because we are designed do this (and we often do it badly). Working with God to become the right kind of healthy person allows us to more freely reach out and love others. We are cooperating with his design for us. And this, in many ways, is doing it for God’s sake.

But actions can also include plural motives. If a drunken man came to my front door, I may be inclined to help him by inviting him in and giving him a place to rest. I am doing this for his sake. But I’m also doing it for my neighborhood’s sake, because who knows what kind of trouble he could be getting into and what damage he may cause to others. I could also be doing it for the town’s sake because, perhaps, the police who usually pick up such persons staggering down the street are involved in more important business. So in this sense we can have several ‘sakes’ for doing an action.

Taking it up a notch, the very same act could be for God’s sake too. Not only would I be fulfilling my design as an appropriate human person, but I’m also providing some love and kindness that this man needs. He cannot be healed by me alone. I’m only one mortal person. But in his inner-place, the place where only God sees, he is likely afraid and alone. And only God can help him there. For God’s sake, I become part of this man’s larger story and journey as he seeks to know who God is and grows into the design God has for him.

So that’s a way of thinking about it.

It is no surprise we see something like this in the Lord’s Prayer. “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” This is our prayer that God’s good will come about too, praying for his ‘sake.’ This is our prayer that the Master of Ceremonies who holds all things in his hands will have the final word and direct the final song. That all our actions and loves will ultimately work in this direction. It’s a compass for us to steer life and our decisions. It’s a fresh way to orient our choices.

Thoughts?