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How to Spot . . . and How to Treat a Chauvinist
I thought they were my friends, they were strong, attractive, Spanish guys. We were in the same honors math classes together.
Photo credit: redbookmag.com
I wore a powder blue fitted dress with white patent leather pumps. The heels were carved of stacked wood, but the dress hit the 4″ above the knee rule.
That day those men started talking.
In Spanish.
About my legs.
Having taken French I wasn’t exactly sure what they were saying.
But the way they said it.
The tone, the eyes, the elbowing.
I knew even before the translation.
The dress changed the way they saw me. And I had worn it, not to be eye-candy, but because I felt delicious in those colors.
Chauvinism in my high school?
Or was is simply appreciation of my legs?
What is a Chauvinist?
Photo credit: digitalmusicinsider.com
According to The American Heritage Dictionary (my fav) chauvinism is “Prejudiced belief in the superiority of one’s own gender, group, or kind”.
Prejudiced belief, that means beliefs untried with the people of this world.
I’ve met chauvinists in church green rooms after a sermon. I’ve shared a stage with them. I’ve worked for them, lived with them, shared meals with them and even dated them. They don’t all look like Dwight Schrute or talk like Michael Scott or score like Jack Donaghy.
Some of the men I’ve loved the most are chauvinists. They assume things that blow their cover.
They eat first.
They are exempt from serving someone outside their gender, group, class.
They are in charge, no matter what the subject, place or need of the moment.
They are top dog.
Three Ingredients in Chauvinists
If you want a quick test for the first tell-tale sign of a chauvinist, look for lack of empathy.
The second is their drive. Chauvinist are driven by the dual engine of immaturity and insecurity.
Take my friend, Saul, for example (don’t worry, that’s not his real name). When we get together, he assumes everyone wants to hear his stories. He rarely asks others for their opinion, nor does he ask them about their experiences. And he cannot listen without spring-boarding, using my example to tell a larger, louder, longer story.
Saul never got a chance to grieve some very damaging events in his teen years. He is emotionally immature. So in some ways after dinner with him, I feel like I’ve had dinner with a junior higher. I feel like I’ve served him, but he’s assumed he entertained me all evening.
His Me Monster behavior indicates, also, that he cannot tolerate competition or someone else gaining control.
Saul’s life is a model example of fallen masculinity, the third aspect and philosophical foundation for male chauvinism.
The code of fallen masculinity says that a “real man” will out-compete others, out control others and finally (and most significantly) have a steady disdain for women. For more see, Mary Stewart Van Leeuwen’s My Brother’s Keeper.
If a man disdains a woman (just as if a woman disdains a man) he will not come right out and state it. Rather, he will show you, by small freighted statements.
Photo credit: blog.amigram.com
Let me give you some examples.
“You throw like a girl.” A clear example of disdain for women, letting a novice female arm insult a boy’s desire to learn. Let’s just say you throw poorly, as we all have to learn.
“Sissy, pansy, pussy.” All of which use slang aspects of women to insult a man.
“Dumb blondes.” Are they ever thinking of a guy with yellow hair?
“Woman drivers.” Not usually a compliment.
“Women can’t publicly preach (or lead, or direct, or manage) men. They are distracting (or too emotional, or weak, or irrational, or just plain unfit). If you think, as I did, that the Bible is clear about this and a woman’s role, compare Judges 4:4, 2 Chron 34:22 with 2 Tim 2:12-15. For more see my essay with Dale, Unmuted.
“Putting on a little weight there, aren’t you?” to a pregnant woman. How could you ever mistake a woman’s new life in her womb for extra cellulite?
“My wife could never be the main bread winner.” This one needs follow-up. Why?
“I bring home the bacon, I don’t cook it.”
“Gotta check with the wife.” This one is subtle disrespect, as it includes a statement of asking permission, but all while reducing the personhood of one’s spouse. Another version, “The woman can’t get out her in time.”
“You have all day to vacuum the living room. Don’t do it now while I’m in here.” I heard this statement this last week
“Women have roles.” Though a non-chauvinist could say this, it is less common. I find it most interesting that it is often men commanding women at large to get back into the role God ordained for them (insecurity over what will happen if a woman is in charge of . . . a man?!). Even if Scripture mandated roles (something I no longer see) it would be women’s responsibility before God to find that place, not a man’s to put her there. Also, interesting that the opposite is less common, “Men have roles!”
“Sorry, honey, but this might be just an area you have to submit to me.” Ignoring Ephesians 5:21.
“Since Paul says the marriage bed is undefiled and I am the head of this home, my sexual gratification should be your number one priority. And I want this . . .” Refusing to see the context of the marriage bed being undefiled (for more see Heb 13:4). Refusing to understand that head is a metaphor literally turned on its head in Eph. 5, to mean first of all service, giving up all rights, including the right to live (“laying down his life” Eph 5:25 and 28).
and my personal favorite,
“God made men more rational, therefore He asked men to have the tie-breaking vote, to make all final decisions in the home.” What root grows this statement? Some might say it’s the natural outworking of submission or headship from the New Testament. I disagree, as the healthiest husbands I know do not pull the submission card, nor state how they make final decisions. Rather healthy marriages in practice look like two equals working out of their giftedness, not playing their prescribed gender roles. (for more on this please see Unmuted: The Welcome Colors of a Woman’s Voice).
Think these statements are outdated?
I’ve heard them all in the last 10 years.
Can you tell how each of the above statements are motivated by lack of empathy, insecurity, immaturity and fallen masculinity? For more on one of the roots for male domination of women see the book or my review When a Man You Love is Abused, by Cecil Murphey.
If you’d like more elaboration or explanation of any statements in this list (e.g. How exactly is is chauvinistic to think that the man should make all final decisions?), please ask in the comments.
Not all Chauvinists are Men
Here’s the most important part of this post: you and I are in as much danger of chauvinism as any white male. Why?
First, women are a (small or large?) part of keeping chauvinists enabled, empowered and cheered forward simply by believing that men are inherently better.
Often, it’s because we actually believe there is nothing so magnificent or noble as a male. Part of this is good, think of the old marriage vow “with my body I thee worship.” But another part is not good . . . I think of Kate Winslet’s character’s comment to Leonardo DiCaprio’s character in the excellent book and movie, Revolutionary Road.
Photo credit: static.moviefanatic.com
“Don’t you know what you are?” Winslet.
“What?” DiCapprio.
“You’re the most beautiful thing in all the world . . . a man.” Winslet.
Now I’m for mutual admiration and desire in marriage, but a man is not the crown of creation and neither is the woman. If you want a crown of creation, it’s the two working together (Gen 2:23-25).
And if you believe women are overall better human beings just by virtue of their femaleness, you are also a chauvinist… a female chauvinist. I’ve seen it in church circles when men or women claim to be more spiritual, more moral, more enlightened, or in any other ways superior in worth to a man. Want some female chauvinist statements? ask me.
How to Treat a Chauvinist
How do you treat a child who is immature, insecure and wounded?
You love her. You listen, you wait and you empathize with her world. Until you find her open to hearing from you. Unless she is your student or child, you do not blast into her world with statements like “You are an immature, insecure mess!”
How do you treat a full grown man who is immature, insecure and wounded?
The exact same way.
I’ve bit my tongue more than once when grown men with beards and degrees and power tip their chauvinistic cards.
I recall a crowded room dominated by testosterone where I met a well-traveled apologist. I invited him to engage with me about the subject of Christian feminist with the question,”How does that argument line up with what Christian feminists believe?” The room quieted.
“Christian feminists?” he snorted. “They don’t exist.”
I smiled briefly and went back to the buffet to calm down. I knew what I wanted to say,
“I beg your pardon, you’re speaking to one.”
But, I don’t think that was the way to win him. He certainly wasn’t looking for relief from his misconception, neither were the other men in that room.
Instead, I worked with respect and peace on the panel next to him. I disagreed about some of the ways he answered the theological questions and I shared them.
But I did not disarm him of his view that Christian feminists don’t exist.
Jesus said it well, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
How do we keep from chauvinism ourselves? How do we foster empathy and ward off insecurity, immaturity, the fallen male code?
That’s for another post, for I can say right now . . .
If you can battle your insecurity with courageous voyaging into your soul . . . (for instance, discover what keeps you from having an open mind in certain areas)
If you can discover the places you are not yet an adult (I recommend Changes That Heal by Cloud and Townsend and the Holy Spirit for that journey) . . .
If you can cultivate empathy so that you can understand the root of chauvinism, then . . .
you are living worthy of being called a child of the Most High. You are refusing to be a clashing cymbal, rather . . .
you are a fragrance of the kingdom that has no end, where Truth Slips her hands through Beauty’s arm and Goodness graces every person, ever race, every gender.
Postscript . . . Chauvinism is NOT the Same as Chivalry
Photo credit: karenswhimsy.com
Because I have a deep concern to love the men in my life, because I’m also wary of being called a flaming femi-Nazi, I want to be clear about a few things that are NOT chauvinistic.
It is not chauvinistic to open a door for a woman, just as it’s not chauvinistic for a woman to bandage a man’s sliced arm. This is what it looks like to use our strengths to serve the opposite sex.
And it’s sexy and cool and utterly fitted to this fallen world where we need each other. We are not independent one from the other, as Paul said, “However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman” (1 Cor 11:11).
When the Spanish guys in my high school complimented my legs I don’t think they were being chauvinists, not yet. It began when they began referring to me by “Legs,” when I stopped being a peer with them and went to being an object for them.
Chauvinism is the enemy of friendship, love, servanthood.
So when L on our construction site asks me if I need help along the icy hill, I accept it and appreciate him, knowing he is using his awareness and strength to help me out.
Helping those outside of our gender, group or kind is not chauvinism, rather its the opposite.
January 18th, 2012 at 11:50 am
Interesting list…glad you mentioned that women can be chauvinists too! As I read some of the descriptors – the friend of yours – I can think of more women like that than men!! I find it particularly annoying when women say they prefer time with guy friends, and mock women for their “emotions” and gossip and such (I think you mention this in a let me be me post).
It’s hard to see the list of examples. Because it makes almost every male I know a chauvinist! I feel like it’s almost inbred in many men to mock each other for throwing like girls. I don’t like it, but men I respect have said that.
A lot of male-driven jobs (my dad is a police officer) are deeply immersed in the type of language you described. And you’re a “wuss” if you don’t subscribe to that sort of teasing and one-upping!
I think another hard part is I know many who say those things but play it off as joking and harmless. I never know what to do in those situations. As you say, I don’t want to be the femi-Nazi…but how do I point out the gravity of what they imply?!
I appreciate your approaches, will have to try the gentler approach perhaps
January 18th, 2012 at 9:54 pm
CJ,
In my book Ruby Slippers pages 166ff I’ve got three sections “Female Wounds”, “Distancing Ourselves from Women” and “Preferring Men” What Does it Reveal about Us?” Since writing this the problem of women being women’s worst enemies is a frequent theme. I know I’ve used it at Let Me Be Me ( Ever since I read Sarah Sumner’s Men and Women in the Church, I’ve noticed this problem.
If you believe almost every man you know is a chauvinist then I want to personally invite you to a Soulation Gathering, where the men who attend are not like this. There are men out there who are not chauvinists, I promise!
“Wuss” another good example of chauvinistic language.
One idea of how to respond when chauvinistic statements get brushed off as “no big deal” is to ask questions, “Why do you use that word when you want to put a guy down?” “I wonder where it came from?” or “How do you think that word makes women feel?”
Then, don’t answer the question.
This works particularly well if you can bring it up one-on-one and not in a crowded male dominated room, it also works well if the guy has used the word “Pussy” for example.
You don’t have to say another word after that.
It will bring an awareness to the conversation instantly.
You could even say, “I’m not a fan of using women’s body parts to insult men.”
January 21st, 2012 at 8:16 am
Thanks Jonalyn.
I’d love to go to a soulation gathering one day, they seem like a lovely experience
I didn’t mean to sound super negative – I think it’s most difficult because I know, for example, my dad has 3 daughters and I wouldn’t call him a chauvinist and he doesn’t have alot of those selfish insecure characteristics. But – due to perhaps a mixture of his dad and a male-driven work environment, he has succumbed to some of this chauvinist language because it’s been around him. See what I mean? Not to excuse my dad and he has some old fashioned views that we challenge him on but as much as he’s said stuff about ‘throwing like a girl’ I don’t think I’d throw him in a lot with the chauvinists?
Perhaps I’m excusing him. And he by no means gets away with it – if he says that stuff, he usually regrets it as myself and mom and sisters are very clear in not appreciating that language.
I do believe there are chauvinists but I wonder if some men just to fit an environment or with pressure from school, parents, etc, to ‘be men’ have donned this language without being a full on chauvinist?
haha – maybe that is not really the point at all! I will just keep pushing my dad on that stuff and challenge him on his language. Just hard to see my dad in with this lot of men!
January 23rd, 2012 at 9:35 pm
C.J.
The Soulation Gatherings are the highlights of my year. I do hope you’ll apply to come.
I think you raise an important point. It’s very easy to adapt phrases or slang that are actually chauvinistic without intending them. So we can say chauvinism’s (the word) without meaning to slander one sex (the spirit).
This is something that, I believe, Paul talks about when he says “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds.” Romans 12:2
It is hard labor to constantly ask ourselves if what we say and believe and do is more from the prince of this world or more of the kingdom of God. This is especially labor intensive when we’re accustomed to living an UN-examined life.
I believe that for the men who are chauvinistic in language but not in spirit, we can continue to give them a chance to consider what they’re saying, without shutting them up. In other words, give them a chance to think it through. Good questions are key to this… I know that was Jesus’ tack with those who accidentally hurt others, too (the Pharisees are a good case in point).
January 24th, 2012 at 12:39 pm
Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking about. I agree. Yes, the courage to ask good questions and not succumb to angry, rageful attacks (as I often feel inclined
) is a helpful way to respond.
January 18th, 2012 at 2:00 pm
Jesus said it well, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
This was a fitting conclusion, Jonalyn. I’ve been learning to rest and not try to change every person. Not everyone wants to change, so it is wise to not spend time hounding their every move. It is much more restful to learn empathy for “the accuser” and then to *sometimes* just not say anything. It avoids making one into a clashing cymbal, as you said. “Gentler,” to borrow from C.J.’s comment above.
This is especially difficult, but more deeply rewarding, when the comments or misconceptions are directed at oneself.
Not that we should never be verbal or vigilant in presenting what is actually true. I am simply saying that we don’t always have to fight, or win, (in the accuser’s eyes) every time.
Having said all that, thank you for pointing out how chauvinism manifests in our lives. I don’t think it is healthy to take on the “victim” status and not understand why someone is attacking, or saying untrue things. Your essay here helps us recognize prejudices in ourselves or others. It is healthy to see why someone does what they do, name it as ungodly (or false), and live restfully in spite of it. Reminds me of “People of the Lie,” which I just started reading thanks to one of your husband’s talks.
January 18th, 2012 at 9:58 pm
Hope,
Thank you for offering some more support for knowing when and how to fight the unkindness in this world. Our resources for fighting, unlike God’s, are limited.
Prejudices seem to show some broken and oddly mended parts in a person’s soul. For some great, whimsical, magical examples of this see The Tale of Despereaux by Kate DiCamillio, my favorite book of the week.
Glad to hear you’re enjoying People of the Lie, what a powerful book!
January 18th, 2012 at 3:04 pm
Well said, Jonalyn! Thank you for sharing these thoughts. I wonder if the male apologist you mentioned would have been less offended if the phrasing “Christian accurate image-bearer” or something less female oriented had been used. I do not view your thoughts as feminism, rather as a theological correction to a closer perspective of how God wants all of His children to correctly bear His image. One might even say – how to be “appropriately human”.
Slandering God’s creation (“You throw like a girl” or “You’re messy like a guy”) does not glorify Him or praise Him for the immense creativity and diversity He has so beautifully given us to enjoy in this temporal world.
Thanks!
January 18th, 2012 at 10:06 pm
Amy,
Of course he would have been less offended. But here’s the rub, the trouble as I see it was that he was unwilling to see how the word feminist can itself be redeemed. I believe his understanding of “feminist” was visceral and meant bra-burning, men-hating women. He was un-versed, inexperienced and immature in his knowledge.
But he failed to have the humility that would appropriately accompany his naiveté.
My use of feminist was a way to see what he thought, but until that moment I did not realize he would have this response. I actually believed he had studied feminism enough to know the importance of adjectives before the noun. As in “Christian feminist or first wave feminist or secular feminist.”
If I had used the phrase “appropriately human image-bearer” we would have come no closer to redeeming the word or the females I know who proudly identify themselves as Jesus-loving feminists. For a good example see Kimberly George.
So here’s the heart of the question… tell me why feminist rubs you in such a way that you don’t want to use it to describe what I think and write here? And feel free to push back!
January 19th, 2012 at 5:36 am
Oh dear, I fear my comment may have been taken the wrong way.
In saying that the word feminist set this gentleman off, I was merely pointing out the extreme (and immature) nature of his response. I applaud your usage and your continuing efforts to expose the inappropriate discrimination against women that is socially acceptable in many of our Christian circles. I am not afraid or upset by the word “feminist” in the least. It’s just so interesting (albeit sad) that the word “feminism” in some circles has turned into a curse word or a hate group type of connotation. Personally, I am not of that opinion. 
I absolutely agree with you about redeeming the word “feminists” in light of our God-given nature and uniqueness from man. I was just pointing out his wildly inappropriate response from the trigger of “feminism”, but definitely did not think that you (or we) should avoid the word so as to allow others to remain in their naivete. The sad thing is, he is not alone in his thought process or his unloving response.
Yet, his immature response reminds me of that old song “They’ll Know We Are Christians By Our Love” and that’s why I love your thought process about how to respond in love – attempting to keep unity in our Christian family without being less of who God made us to be. So balanced, Jonalyn – really appreciate that about you!
I couldn’t agree more with your paragraph above “If I had used the phrase…”. You are right on the mark! How else should we call ourselves other than Jesus-loving feminists? We love Jesus and we are feminine – so simple, yet so misconstrued.
I apologize that my initial comment was phrased in a way to be misinterpreted and hope you know I am in your camp on this one.
Love the continuing dialogue – thank you!
January 19th, 2012 at 5:55 am
One more quick point of clarification – I was not advocating that your choice of words should have been an attempt to make this gentleman less offended. I believe that may have been where the beginning of the misinterpretation of my remarks may have rooted from – so sorry.
I do not believe his “offendedness” to be your responsibility or a thing to avoid. 
January 19th, 2012 at 9:18 am
Amy,
Thank you so much for clarifying. This makes a lot of sense. I’m grateful you explained.
I love having your thoughts
Jonalyn
January 23rd, 2012 at 6:54 pm
And yet I’m still intrigued by the choice to identify yourself first as a feminist (“A person whose beliefs and behavior are based on feminism”), with the modifying adjective of Christian, rather than choosing to be identified first as a Christ-follower, with your view of womanhood as the modifier. That is a significant distinction to me.
January 23rd, 2012 at 9:40 pm
This made me smile as I think the context will be helpful to iron this “intrigue”
I do not identify myself as a feminist as my core-identifying feature.
But on this blog my purpose is to talk specifically about how my Christianity, feminism and sexuality work together. Therefore I bring up feminist as one of the words that needs an adjective to help focus it’s meaning.
I believe my work in other blogs (letmebeme.org or secondyearmom.com) serve to show that I identify myself differently as the context, purpose and audience are focused on other things. Hope this helps!
January 24th, 2012 at 7:33 pm
I’m glad I made you smile.
January 18th, 2012 at 7:25 pm
Loved this post, Jonalyn. I think it’s so important to be training our male children how to honor and respect girls and women. A firm reminder to me to be diligent in teaching my boys.
January 18th, 2012 at 10:08 pm
I love the way your boys honor women. I’m excited to see how they grow and value women in their teen and adult years! You and B are doing a fantastic job.
January 23rd, 2012 at 10:51 am
Really good and helpful thoughts Jonalyn, thanks! One of the biggest challenges for me is to remain calm and peaceful when attitudes and comments from a chauvinist are dominating the conversation and event. I hate my reactions and how distracting it is. I want to blast and out-talk that person. Or I just get angry inside. I know those reactions produce nothing. I don’t want to be a clashing cymbal, but a memorable fragrance. I want to show empathy and understand AND speak wisely. God help me. I know he will give me more times to practice this!
January 23rd, 2012 at 9:37 pm
Becky,
Love your confession here. I relate to that feeling of rising anger. One thing that’s helped me in those situations is to ask myself what particularly made me angry and to then ask the Spirit:
What specifically triggered anger in me?
Is it good or harmful anger?
Where does this man come from that he would find it good to say such a thing?
How can I step into his world and his shoes long enough to cultivate love for his place and feelings?
This takes so much energy that it drains my anger energy and re-focuses it towards the hard work of love.
I still work on it regularly.. and yes, I know God will continue to give us opportunity to practice.
Glad to have you practicing along with me.
January 23rd, 2012 at 7:28 pm
Considering your thoughts on this topic is always fascinating to me. I agree with every statement about mutual respect and honor between the genders. It does go both ways, and female chauvinists are just as ugly as their male counterparts. What fascinates me is how much we do agree on, yet there is a place where I can’t go because I do believe there is biblical precedent to the contrary. You know we don’t hold the same view, so that comes as no surprise to you.
I’m familiar with the stories of Hulda & Deborah, yet I look at the entirety of the Bible and see that those stories are the exception rather than the rule. I also know that starting your statement, “Women can’t publicly preach (or lead, or direct, or manage) men…” doesn’t have to end with any of the descriptors you listed. It is possible for a pastor to value and appreciate women, their unique contributions to the church, their strengths and individual spiritual gifts, to welcome their voices and view them as honorable and precious parts of the body, yet still make a statement about women publicly preaching. The pastor I know best, who will not allow women to be put down or “put in their place” simply because they’re women, yet still believes that men are to serve as pastors and preachers, would end the statement with “because I see in Scripture a predominant pattern of male leadership in God’s order of worship, including the passages that describe the function of elders in the church. I could not do otherwise with a clear conscience.”
And that’s what fascinates me about what you’ve written here. So many clear examples of chauvinism, examples I’ve seen as well as you have, and would agree with you about how to recognize and to respond to that demeaning attitude. Yet I don’t think it necessarily logically has to follow that if a pastor believes from his study of God’s Word that women shouldn’t preach publicly that it means he is a chauvinist, or that he believes they are unfit, distracting, etc. I do believe that how he finishes the statement “Women shouldn’t preach publicly…” matters greatly and makes a significant difference in how we should respond to him.
Hope you hear my heart accurately on this one.
January 23rd, 2012 at 9:48 pm
Always glad you care to write and challenge me, M.
I put those sentences in very carefully as they are package deals… the first part and the last part prove the chauvinist, not just the first part “Women shouldn’t preach publicly.” I agree with you that a man can believe that the Bible teaches that men are to be the primary leaders and not be chauvinist. I have lived with, worked with and dated men like this. In fact, most of my experience is with men who believe that male leadership is not just scriptural but ontological and are not chauvinistic men: pastors, co-workers, boyfriends, even my ex-fiance. In fact, that is the reason I originally wrote Ruby Slippers… to prove to women that men who wanted to exercise male leadership were not being mean or bossy or chauvinistic.
It was in writing Ruby Slippers that I realized the typical male leadership arguments from Scripture were neither clear, nor consistent. To sum up, they did not convince me anymore.
That said, I am in agreement with you that just because a man may say “God’s ideal is for a man and not a woman to lead the church and home” it doesn’t automatically follow that this man is a chauvinist.
HOWEVER, I do think the men and women (such as yourself) who believe the Bible primarily teaches male authority over women as God’s model are often unaware of the many Christian and Biblical arguments to the contrary. I would challenge you to share with me the books you have read that represent another Christian view. For instance, what Christian egalitarian theologians have you engaged with in terms of these key passages such as Genesis 1-3, 1 Tim 2, 1 Cor 11, Eph 5, Titus, 1 Peter 3… besides me, of course
January 24th, 2012 at 7:32 pm
Ah, Jonalyn, there is so much on which we agree. I hesitate to pick up this challenge. Is it really so inconceivable for someone to study God’s Word, read the scholars who hold varying understandings of the passages, and still be comfortable (“clear conscience in light of my understanding of Scripture” comfortable) keeping men in the pulpit? Is ignorance really the most probable reason to explain why someone holds to a view of male elders? I’ll answer your question and do my best to discipline my heart not to assume I know what lay behind it: Two Views on Women, edited by Beck; Women in the Church, ed by Grenz; How I Changed My Mind, ed by Johnson; and I just ordered Discovering Biblical Equality, ed by Pierce, as I haven’t read anything in this area recently and am more than willing to keep an open mind to understand and weigh the arguments.
What are your top two picks for books that propose the egalitarian view? I can’t ask for more than that, or it’ll be a year before I read them.
It took me almost two months to get through the last book you recommended.
As for the rest of your response, thank you for your patience as I strained at gnats. I appreciated your clarifying the distinction between the parts of the statement individually vs. the statement as a whole. My response stemmed, in part, from my experience dialoguing with individuals who assume a false dichotomy and insist that if anyone says “women shouldn’t preach publicly” then that person is saying “women are unfit, etc.” One doesn’t not necessarily follow the other.
I would also note (the strainer has room for one more gnat) that I wasn’t doing more than addressing whether women should preach publicly. “Male authority over women” is a broader, more nuanced topic, and one in which I continue to believe we’d find more common ground than not. I would submit your “Unmuted” essay as an example; I agreed with most of what you wrote, and appreciated your tone throughout the entirety of the essay. I appreciate you always.
January 24th, 2012 at 9:02 pm
Melinda,
Absoballly-lutely you can read all the arguments and all the books on both sides and remain a patriarchalist, however, I am more wanting to double check that you (and readers) have looked at other arguments. This was not mean to sounds accusing that you had not. I’m sorry for making it sound like I was saying you were ignorant.
I was personally not super impressed by Beck’s Two Views on Women, but it did show the summaries of both arguments. My top pics in terms of my development (i.e these are the books that made me open to changing my mind)
are
Sarah Sumner’s Men and Women in Ministry – she’s a theological prof who went to Dallas Theological. Fun, clear-headed read.
and
Discovering Biblical Equality: Complementarity without Hierarchy (DBE) edited by Groothius and Pierce, which you already have on order!
DBE is a hefty book, but accessible. I’d recommend 2 essays in there to start with Groothius’ “Equal in Being Unequal in Role: Exploring the Logic of Female Subordination” and Kevin Giles “The Subordination of Christ, the Subordination of Women.”
Fun note: Pierce actually took the photos of my parent’s wedding. He is the only egalitarian in Biola’s theology department and I audited one of his classes at Talbot, after having received my philosophy of religion degree (with plenty of theology) from all patriarchal profs.
It is very helpful for me to know that your view is more focused on ‘women should not preach publicly’ than male headship in the home. Which, by the way, leads me to remember something my very complementation prof said, “If women are afforded such a prominent, leading/decision-making, teaching role in the home, because (here he invited us each to list the reasons why we ask our wives–yes male dominated class–to help us find the lid to the square tupperware, or know when Susie has her dentist appointment or why Tommy isn’t ready for potty training), why would we think God would be against women having the same prominent, leading/decision-making, teaching role in God’s house?”
That was the first chink in my patriarchal armor.
And, Melinda, please feel free to strain away. I appreciate your mind and challenges. . . a lot!
January 26th, 2012 at 8:24 am
I second these two recommendations, Sumner’s Men and Women in the Church and DBE. In fact, they were the first two works I encountered that presented persuasive arguments for egalitarianism (although Sumner doesn’t specifically identify her position with that term).
A counselor of mine (a complementarian, who was the first person to introduce me to the words “egalitarian” and “complementarian”) had recommended that I look for a book by John Piper to learn about gender issues in the church. So I searched for Piper books on amazon.com and found Piper and Grudem’s “Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.” But some of the reviews hinted that that book might not be, shall we say, presenting the whole story.
I decided I wanted to explore a wider treatment of the issues. The comments on RBMW led me to other authors and books. I decided that RBMW looked the most promising for the comp view, DBE for the comp view, and Sumner for a sort of middle view.
I’ll just say my research paid off.
January 26th, 2012 at 3:35 pm
Verity3,
Loved hearing about your journey through books. I relate to much of it.
February 1st, 2012 at 9:13 pm
Book arrived. Will read as soon as I’m done with reading assignments for the leadership classes I’m taking.
February 2nd, 2012 at 10:00 am
You must let me know what you think… either here or in an email
January 24th, 2012 at 10:43 am
Thanks for the thoughtful post, Jonalyn. Don’t worry. If anyone ever thinks you’re a femi-Nazi, they’ve never met one. If they did, I hope they would remember that Jesus didn’t assign labels to people and then leave them in the dust behind him.
January 24th, 2012 at 3:38 pm
Thank you, Mandy.
January 24th, 2012 at 12:52 pm
You make some very good points, and I appreciate your Christlike love. Yes, that is how we should treat men who are insecure, wounded and immature. But I don’t believe everyone who is a chauvinist, is one because of insecurity, woundedness and/or immaturity. Some of them are chauvinists because they believe God is a Chauvinist, and that the Bible supports the subordination of women by God’s design.
So what do you do with this kind of man? I think you “turn the other cheek” as Jesus intended it to be understood in his culture (an Ancient Near East honor-shame culture): you make some small, non-violent gesture that brings home to them what they’re doing and says, clearly but gently, “shame on you.” I think your examples of questions like, “I wonder how that makes women feel?” are exactly that.
I think you’re saying that we need to respond in love and wisdom regarding our timing– but that we are not to be doormats and just let them get away with their demeaning attitudes and words. If so, I’m on the same page.
January 24th, 2012 at 3:21 pm
Kristen,
Wow, I’m delighted you put this question to me. You are absolutely correct, there are men whose chauvinism springs from their theology. In my book, Ruby Slippers, I covered the idea that I used to believe that God was more male than female, and that God actually liked men more than women. The chapter is titled “Finding the Feminine in the Sacred.”
That idea is diabolical in the truest sense as the evil one is always trying to denigrate the image of God in woman and in man. I do not think I would agree that I want to say “shame on you,” even to a man who is chauvinistic in his view of God. I believe it is up to God to shame, not me. And I’m not totally sure God ever shames someone (can you think of an example?), though I do think he holds us responsible. This may be just a semantic difference.
I think we as thinkers after and lovers of God need to be more intentional about ways to gently remind men (and women) that the ideas they have of God will affect their own humanity and those of every woman they love. Some men need only have a baby girl to realize their views of what women can do was wrong. Sometimes I ask questions (thank you for encouraging me in the question I shared about “how does that make women feel?”), sometimes I pray for them to have a daughter, sometimes I pray for them to not have a daughter as I can’t see a woman being safe in their home, sometimes I simply close my lips and look at them with sadness. It’s amazing what little you have to do to stop the flow of a chauvinist’s mouth. We can say so much by being careful and strategic with our eyes and words.
I completely agree that we are never to be doormats, we are to serve, love, question, push, challenge, lead and articulate that there is a God that created men and women in his image, neither more than the other.
I’d love to hear from you or others about possible other powerful questions we can ask a chauvinist to help them in a non-violent way to illuminate what they’re doing.
Thanks, again for your question and points.
January 26th, 2012 at 8:28 am
I think one legitimate question to ask a chauvanist might be, “Do Christian masculinists exist?”
January 26th, 2012 at 3:35 pm
ooooh, that’s a fantastic one!! can I copy?
January 27th, 2012 at 11:49 am
Please do
It’s borrowed.
January 24th, 2012 at 10:45 pm
Jonalyn, yes, I think the “shame” issue is a semantic difference. I’m not talking about shaming men, nor do I believe God shames people. I simply meant that in an honor-shame culture such as the one Jesus lived in, “shame” was what was communicated to an oppressor if the person he struck on the left cheek, turned the right one. In today’s culture, the message is probably better expressed as “take a good look at yourself and what you’re doing!” Here’s an explanation of “turn the other cheek” based on historical-cultural context, which I have found very helpful.
http://www.csec.org/csec/sermon/wink_3707.htm
As far as other good questions, I think something like this might help (but only if they’re willing to listen): “Jesus said, ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Would you like to have done to you, as a male, what is being done to females in the church and home?
Or: “Jesus told a parable about a servant who was rebuked for burying his talent in the ground. How do you think the Father feels about servants who bury other servants’ talents and then say it’s His will?”
January 25th, 2012 at 10:38 am
Kirsten,
I love this sermon by Wink.. such a great explanation of how to turn the other cheek in the way Jesus meant. Thank you for sharing here for others to enjoy and grow from, too.
Great linking of shame to the shame/honor culture. A good point!
Appreciated your questions, too. The first I will be adding to my repertoire.
January 26th, 2012 at 8:53 am
I’m so happy to find your blog! I consider myself sort of a Christian feminist accomodationist, based on my belief that God accomodated to spiritually immature people when He gave His Word to them… and that I ought to consider how He wants me to accomodate people now (or not). So it’s exciting to find other people who want to explore grace, as distinguished from permissiveness.
This post provides a great list. I do feel the need to quibble over one example, though:
““Putting on a little weight there, aren’t you?” to a pregnant woman. How could you ever mistake a woman’s new life in her womb for extra cellulite?”
I’m not sure I’m reading you right on this one. Is the context a man who does, or does not, know the woman is pregnant?
If the former, then maybe it’s a dumb joke, but the point seems to be self-deprecating rather than demeaning to the woman or the life inside her. (Though some who are oblivious to the self-deprecation of the joke might repeat it with a more demeaning delivery, I don’t think there’s an inherent misogynistic problem with the joke itself.)
If the latter, then I see the problem as the fact of commenting on another person’s weight. This is insensitive in itself, not because the person can’t tell the difference between a “new life” and “cellulite.” Men and women can and do make that mistake All. The. Time. It just isn’t safe to ask a woman whether she’s pregnant, LOL. It just isn’t!
Anyway, your example seems to require of ordinary people a perceptiveness that no one can be expected to have… almost a superpower. But maybe I just missed your point
January 26th, 2012 at 3:41 pm
Verity3,
Glad to know you!
On the little quibble, good catch.
The context was a man who knew the woman was pregnant and was joking with her. I thought it was chauvinistic because he was unable to visit with her straight up and comment kindly on the baby’s growth. Instead he evaluated her body as sub-par in the weight gain department. His comment called her pregnancy extra weight, not only being socially awkward but also insulting her body shape. I believe he failed to honor her for the largeness/size/inconvenience she was enduring.
I can’t imagine him doing this to a man who was, say, holding his child under his sweatshirt to keep warm. But I may be wrong on this.
I suppose at best it was insensitive and at worst unkind. I feel like it was close to chauvinism because he moved to evaluate her body as if she was asking for evaluation. This feels like a devaluing of women… but perhaps I’m reading into it?
Thanks for pointing out that the context was confusing.
January 27th, 2012 at 5:43 pm
Struggling with my “roles” and how they are defined by men has been hard for me at times. The idea that my “role” was to be in the kitchen cooking, or cleaning the house, or taking care of the kids was so hard for me to swallow that I almost rejected the idea of even having children some day. And I felt it was my mission to expose and rid the world of chauvinists around me. But while studying Ecclesiastes 2, God gave me peace. Verses 22, 23, 26 say: “What do people get for all the toil and anxious striving with which they labor under the sun? All their days their work is grief and pain; even at night their minds do not rest. This too is meaningless… To the person who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind. ”
I don’t know what “roles” God has for me in the future, but I take comfort in the fact that HE is the one who makes the most mundane of tasks meaningful and full of happiness. And I can be content in Christ even while surrounded by chauvinism and the depreciation of women, because I know from who I have my worth and identity.
Even if I were always surrounded by non-chauvinistic men and was treated perfectly as an equal, my toil and striving would be meaningless without my Father and Lord.
January 29th, 2012 at 12:22 pm
Chrissa,
I appreciate you sharing your journey through this. This verse is very applicable. I see the way chauvinism sows discord and bitterness, not simply in those who receive it, but those who practice it as part of vanity or meaningless in their lives.
What, has you found, is your role as a woman who loves men (even chauvinistic men) to help them see their chauvinism?
How does your Father guide you to love them with truth and mercy, justice and kindness in this particular issue?
Thank you for sharing this Eph 2 with us.
January 28th, 2012 at 1:02 pm
Also, may I ask what you mean by “Christian feminist”? It’s a term that I am not familiar with and I’m not quite sure what you mean by it or wish most to communicate.
I’ll be honest, when I hear the word “feminist,” I don’t usually think of something positive or Christian – it seems to me a very worldly term. When I hear “feminism,” I think of a movement that began as an attempt to win much-needed rights for women that turned into a social norm for female chauvinism. So many women want to be treated with an equal amount of respect that they will give up anything to get that – including their femininity – and start acting more like men. This, to me, is what feminism has turned into, and I know this is the exact opposite of what you’re working for. I know there is more to feminism than just what I have described, but this is the picture that initially comes to mind. So when I hear the term “Christian feminist”, I think of women using these same worldly methods of rejecting femininity in order to combat biblical passages used to exclude women, such as “women should be silent in the church.” I know this is not what you are doing or where you are coming from, in fact, this is what you seem to be working against, so I have to wonder about the term itself.
I don’t know the situation or the man who said that Christian feminists don’t exist, but may I suggest the possibility that he just didn’t agree with your terminology? Maybe he experienced female chauvinism in the past under the banner of “feminism” and does not think that a chauvinistic attitude is fitting of a Christian. Even if that wasn’t the case in this particular situation, may I suggest selecting or creating a different term that does not carry so much social or emotional baggage? Just a thought.
I truly appreciate all the work you have put into writing and into running Soulation. I believe in what God is doing through you, Dale, and Soulation and hope that my comments can be constructive and challenging instead of critical or offensive. God bless.
January 30th, 2012 at 11:09 am
Chrissa,
Thank you for being so complimentary and kind in your question. I’m glad you asked about this term “Christian feminist.”
I believe this word is appropriate, at least for the moment, as it communicates the importance of women’s value to the world at large. The word has been demonized by groups of men and women who are afraid of women taking power. It is this force of fear and demonizing that I’m fighting here. I cannot let others re-define a good word.
A short historical look at feminism will help me explain.
The American Heritage Dictionary defines feminist as someone who adheres to feminism.
Feminism:
1. Belief in or advocacy of women’s social, political, and economic rights, especially with regard to equality of the sexes.
2. The movement organized around this belief.
In historical terms there have been three major waves of feminism just in the United States.
First wave began in the mid-1800s during the Second Great Awakening. Christian women began speaking out, publicly, against alcohol abuse. Prohibition, among other things, revealed women’s social power to change America. With this push to abolish alcohol, women became a force of political and religious renewal. This first wave of feminism was dominated by Jesus followers.
Second wave feminism achieved for women the vote in America.
Third wave feminism, dominated by secular men and women (the one I believe you’re referencing above) is the one most Christians are aware of, began in the 1960′s and achieved mostly secular goals such as birth control and abortion. This is the wave most people think defines feminist.
But this leaves out history and is, sadly, short-sighted in terms of feminism’s potential and longer history (even to the Old Testament). I believe the man I spoke with was ignorant of these other waves and meanings of feminism. Rather than giving up the name, I believe it is my responsibility to help educate those who want to know more of the meaning of this word.
Read more about the way feminism was originally a Christian idea in Janette Hassey’s book No Time for Silence: Evangelical Women in Public Ministry
The word “feminist” is, by the way, very accepted in secular circles because most understand that feminism has a long history.
It is my belief that an adjective before the word “feminist” is very important. The belief that women’s social, political and economic rights are important is something, I believe, Jesus was for. For instance, Jesus regularly placed women into honorable, valued, equal places with men. He praised Mary for learning with his disciples at his feet (social equality), he accepted the female patronage of women who financially supported his ministry (economic equality), he healed and forgave women that men were ready to stone (moral equality), he put his stamp on the Old Testament where God appointed women like Deborah to rule and judge Israel (political equality) and propose to men (social equality, see Ruth in the book of Judges).
Please, however, do not mistake me to be saying that I believe men and women are interchangeable parts. Men and women are different, that’s why I originally wrote my book, Ruby Slippers, I wanted to explain how women are both feminine and free in Jesus’ kingdom. Our differences are one of the reasons, I believe are, God asked man and woman to take dominion, subdue and fill this earth together, side-by side (see Gen 1).
The way you go about achieving feministic goals (man-bashing for instance, verses carefully argumentation and love) is very important to God. So is the reason you want certain “equal” rights. This blog is a place I try to think through the best way to promote equality while maintaining distinctness between the genders. This is, I believe, one of the reasons Jesus came, to set the prisoner free.
And many would agree that women are imprisoned today.. if not literally by human trafficking, then socially, politically, religiously. And if 1 Cor 11:11 is correct then if women are imprisoned, so are men. For a secular admission of this exact thinking see Half the Sky: Turning Oppression into Opportunity for Women Worldwide. One point in this book that I loved was how our USA Terrorism Department noted countries where women were empowered as places terrorism would be less entrenched. The increase of power and opportunity for women directly affected the decline of terrorism. To me, this is how God created this world, a place where men need women and women need men.
January 29th, 2012 at 8:15 pm
Hi Jonalyn,
Have you done any writing or thinking about “closet matriarchalists”? As in, women who bully their husbands with arbitrarily designated domestic and social norms? Rigid and unyielding ideals within the home that are inegalitarian and oppressive? Put another way, what is the justification for a woman/women to determine what is appropriate or inappropriate without any discussion?
This could go a long way toward alleviating the concerns of thoughtful men who may “lean” chauvinist. Also, doesn’t the application of the term to particular men presuppose an objective, non-hypersensitive intuition on the woman’s part? Can it be that women often “read” into this when in fact is not there?
thanks
adam
January 30th, 2012 at 9:33 am
Hi Adam,
Great question here. YES, I do write, quite a bit, about women’s closet matriarchalism (nice phrase btw), our tendency to use our strengths to cajole, nag, harm men. In fact I have an entire chapter devoted to that in my book Ruby Slippers: How the Soul of a Woman Brings her Home, see chapter “Frailty, Thy Name is Woman.”
You can find a recent post of man and woman’s frailty here on my blog:http://soulation.org/jonalynblog/2011/12/mercy-for-christmas.html
Your comment makes me want to write more about it. Thanks for letting me know there’s interest on your part!
A follow-up question for you, “What do you think causes women to behave like this?”
I’ve found that corsets (human-made social/gender norms) often imprison women and men and end up creating oppression that goes both ways.
Another question for you: What line do you recommend a woman use to determine what is appropriate in terms of expectations for her man/men?
I have to disagree with you that we must assume an objective, non-hypersensitive intuition woman to be able to level the charge “chauvinist” at a man or woman. I believe that we can see injustice without assuming we are perfect. And I think we can all come to agreement about what things are inappropriate for a man or woman to say or do without needing perfect omniscience. Let me know if you’d like a few examples.
As to the charge that a woman is “reading” into chauvinism when it is not there I think I’m hearing a man who has felt falsely accused. Would you be willing to share a little more about your experience?
I am willing to admit to hypersensitivity on the part of women, however, this itself is interesting to ask why? Why would a woman feel a man is against her, making fun of her or belittling her femininity? Her past, her present, her fear of the future?
We do things for reasons. And let me be clear that I also see men who are hypersensitive about not accepting responsibility for their unkind, harsh judgements/name-callings/unawareness toward women, men who exaggerate their lack of responsibility, and refuse to see that they feel the range of emotions (beyond anger which is “okay” for a man to feel), too.
As we both need each other, this is worth exploring more!
A few examples of women accusing men of chauvinism when the charge is unfair would be GREAT discuss here. Can you get us started?
January 29th, 2012 at 8:37 pm
BTw, i go by my middle name, adam. john is my first name. It looks weird to have two names on a post! Sorry for the confusion!
This blog is really interesting!
thanks again
adam
April 14th, 2012 at 5:31 pm
I liked the article, except it’s not just white males who are chauvenists. There are chauvenists in all races unfortunately. IMO, some cultures are actually worse than white men– like in the Muslim countries.
April 15th, 2012 at 10:06 am
Andromeda,
Fantastic point, yes, there are chauvinists in every culture and your point about Muslim countries’ chauvinism is well taken. Do you have any examples you could share?