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Hold the Chocolates while I Say Adios to Mr. and Mrs. Nag
I think some people get nagging, I mean they get why it’s so tempting.
I do.
Nagging “the interaction in which one person repeatedly makes a request, the other person repeatedly ignored and both become increasingly annoyed” defined last Wednesday by Elizabeth Bernstein, in the Wall Street Journal’s Meet The Marriage Killer: It’s More Common Than Adultery and Potentially as Toxic, So Why is it So Hard to Stop Nagging?
Bernstein calls it a vicious cycle.
Comic Credit: Wall Street Journal
I ask Dale about the pile of papers on the table.
He explains it’s work he needs to have out to remember to get done.
I remind him about our lovely wicker basket system (lovely because you can put papers within and shut them from my eyes)
He explains the wicker basket is full.
It’s full? Well, that’s because you haven’t dedicated and organized and prioritized. I then begin to outline a new plan, for him.
He interrupts me to restate his need for papers on the kitchen table. Or else, it won’t get done!
Now, how can you argue with that?
Recently, I believed we solved this problem by purchasing a new kitchen table. It’s antique finish awed Dale enough to leave all the piles of paper on the floor, making it difficult to slide into his place for mealtime.
“You really need to do something about this pile of papers,” I remind him yesterday
Repeat above conversation.
Mr. Nag?
Why do women nag more than men?
“Because we are conditioned to feel more responsible for managing home and family life, we are more sensitive to early sign of problems in a relationship . . . etc. etc” or so say the experts from the Journal. Thank you Ms. Bernstein.
But really, now.
So when Dale asks me, repeatedly to not place my clothes on the ladder (he might slip!) and I tell him it’s easier for me and besides, that’s what eyes are for.
And he keeps asking and asking.
We don't look like this when we're nagging each other.
Is this not nagging?
Or when Dale requests that I do not move his carefully piled papers on the table, again and again.
Oh, men can nag. I bet I can get even the most unrelational, unemotional, unsocial man to nag.
Recipe: find the thing THEY are responsible for and don’t take care of it, again and again.
They will remind you, again and again.
I do not recommend this.
My father was really good at nagging me to not touch his Porshe 911 with my hands (There is invisible dust, Joni, that your fingers press into and scratch the paint. Don’t touch it!). He asked me repeatedly. Somehow the creamy white begged me to forget.
I didn’t try to turn my dad into a nagger, but I did.
If nagging is such a problem and so wide-spread, what can we do? The WSJ suggests that nagging makes men feel like little boys (girls, you’re not being sexy!), that nagging can ruin marriages (scared, yet?). Bernstein says we must begin by admitting it (confess your sins? a good start), doing personality tests, learning better communication.
Nice suggestions, but not that helpful, not foundational enough.
Like most stuff journalists pump out, they’re superb at problem revealing, not at problem solving.
Equally Shared Parenting
I’ve recently picked up a book that was serendipitously displayed at my local library in the parenting section–a section full of book titles that normally make me laugh (Screamfree Parenting, Successful Parenting, True Parenting)
Equally Shared Parenting: Rewriting the Rules for a New Generation of Parents by Marc and Amy Vachon, featured in The New York Times in 2008 article “When Mom and Dad Share it All“.
I didn’t laugh. I just marched over and seized it.
Found within, a husband and wife introduce me to my tribe (EquallySharedParenting.com: Half the Work, All the Fun), the group of people who have chosen, voluntarily and happily to share all of parenting and life’s joys and responsibilities. They call this equally shared parenting (ESP).
The boy who started it all.
Ingredients: 2 willing partners
Goals: full partnership in each of the four domains
4 Domains: childraising, breadwinning, house-work and time for self.
Yeild: a marriage where responsibility isn’t divided along gender roles, but along equality.
Now how in the world do you do that?
First, they believe it’s not fair for one spouse to get sidelined to assistant in parenting (what do I feed him? where are his socks?), they (usually the father) miss out on too much.
Second, they believe it’s not fair for one spouse to get sidelined in terms of career (but I made 1/2 of what you do), they (usually the mother) miss out on too much.
Solution: share.
Their book is a detailed look at how to share, from learning to ask employers for part-time work (The guy tries over half a dozen times before learning HOW to ask), to relinquishing control on typical female or male roles (spoiler alert: the main reason guys don’t help with childcare is because women teach them to feel incompetent), to expecting and giving trust.
What a godly idea, though the Vachon’s don’t profess any faith, their mutuality, respect and equality rivals what I’ve envisioned parenting, career and marriage can be if I were brave enough to try.
I’m half way through and taking copious notes. If I get enough feedback from this post, I’ll post a full review.
For now, let me apply their principle to the nagging problems in our lives.
ESP and Nagging
If women relinquish the Mom Power Grab to take all the responsibility (deciding childcare options, scheduling all activities, doctor’s appointments, packing diaper bag, present purchases, bedtime, potty training method etc) and goodies (first time experience at zoo, birthdays, first step, swimming lessons, nighttime snuggles, post-injury comfort, etc) Dads can have a chance to own the responsibility and goodies of child-raising, too.
And the increase of responsibility = lower nagging.
How? A responsible mother or father must in turn learn competence. And there is no quicker terminator of nagging than competence. It eliminates all the bad-mouthing of incompetent, unavailable, disagreeable, insensitive husbands, for instance.
Now, this is not easy. Today, Dale had Finn for the morning hours so I could watercolor. I was to meet them at the Old Town Hot Springs for workout and swim time together. I was right on time, but passed Dale’s Jeep making a left turn in front of me and pulling into (no it can’t be!)
McDONALDS! as drove past.
I was on the phone with a friend, thankfully, which kept me from leaping into the Mom Power grab.
I wanted to call Dale, remind him that there were better eating options for Finn than McDonalds.
I would have liked to text him the extra snacks I packed (a sign I didn’t really trust him to pack food!) in my car that Finn could eat.
I wanted to tell him he was going to be late, as well.
Instead I cruised right by and only miss a few seconds of my friend’s story.
Dale with Finn at 4 months
Dale was responsible.
Could I trust him?
Could I?
Even if he doesn’t father like I mother.
If I want to say no to nagging… YES.
ESP refuses to transfer ownership of any one domain automatically back on one partner for credit or blame. For instance, Finn’s got a blow-out at McDonalds (okay, I go there voluntarily), Dale finds extra wipes in the diaper bag. A nearby mother comments, “Good thing Mom packed extra wipes!” But it was Dad who packed them.
Or say our bank account is shrinking faster than expected due to new home building project. Instead of asking, “Didn’t you plan for this?” of Dale, we work out how we can both make compromises, more savings, less purchases.
With ESP, making money, finding time for our personal hobbies, taking care of Finn, keeping the house (clean, stocked, washed, ordered) is not one person’s sole domain.
Now, of course ESP isn’t for everybody. But it is an attempt to name the thing I’ve been trying to label co-parenting. This equally shared parenting is what Dale and I have been trying to do.
Emphasis on “trying”.
And what’s more exciting, lots of other people are doing it. And they’re not just incredibly lucky, independently wealthy or crazy peeps either. These are couples who want to make sacrifices so that no one parent is shouldered with the primary task of bringing in the income or raising the children.
So back to nagging about those papers. Would you believe it? Nagging goes down if I’m not the only one in charge of vacuuming and dusting around Dale’s pile of papers?
Dale finds his own way and time to tidy up when vacuuming is something he does as well. Do you have any idea of how hard it is to vacuum around papers? You don’t have to argue about it, experience is a lovely and swift teacher.
Getting Rid of the Nag
If you struggle with nagging, one of the sweetest little gifts for a Valentine’s Day present is to back up five paces on the nagging issue.
Who has control over it? Whose domain is getting neglected?
In other words, if the dishes aren’t done, who gets inconvenienced?
If it’s both of you, then nagging won’t be a problem. (Side note: sharing chores does require that you 1- agree what needs attention 2- agree to let the other person clean as they see fit). We both clean as if this is OUR property, not someplace our mom will come after and fix the shoddy job. It also means that my standard of cleanliness may or may not be the same as Dale’s. This is where letting my standard bend to Dale’s (also clean) standard comes in. Very few women can do this.
And this is why we nag.
In our home, Dale does all the dishes, unless he cooks, then we switch. But if the dishes aren’t done, and I cannot make the next meal, the meal doesn’t get made (or we eat cereal out of mugs with plastic spoons). Or I work around the mess, but I don’t complain about the dirty dishes (this is a seven year old skill that isn’t completely in the bag, yet), I cook and make the dishes pile a little larger. It is impossible to make a meal without making some mess (which means more for Dale to eventually clean).
Peanut butter and jelly on paper towels all around.
Dale is not a fan of peanut butter and jelly for all his meals.
The responsibility is shared. We all get impacted by how we do or don’t clean, cook, watch Finn, work on Soulation, take a break. Equality, shared responsibility, even in the areas that seem like the “man’s” or the “woman’s” realm.
And Mr. and Mrs. Nag are slowly retreating.
And with their tail lights in my review mirror, I might just break open that box of chocolates!
February 8th, 2012 at 10:27 am
Great reflection… I enjoyed reading it and looking in on your point of view. I totally agree that I think the solution for nagging is allowing each other to be responsible. Good insight.
I have found ESP flows out of equality in marriage to begin with. And as we have worked on that the last 10 years, it naturally came out as a goal in parenting… a goal (does anyone ever arrive?). I’ve enjoyed finding ways that works with us. And we didn’t even know ESP had a name yet!
Where I differ from the authors is that, just like in marriage, I think each family has its sides of strengths and weaknesses and that each person in the relationship needs to learn to value and allow the more talented to do those kinds of work. Operate out of our giftings, not our genders or formulas. Customizing ESP to a particular family is more important to me than clocking in equal time on all work. I have to face the fact that you are stronger at noticing Finn’s needs at a younger age… and face the fact that he enjoys being with you more for comfort at a younger age. Insisting he be comforted by me equally is a disservice to Finn, on my view. However, I think that will change and shift with time and we get to adapt with those shifts.
By the way, you saw me pulling into the bank parking lot next to McDonald’s… I was turning around. Then I grabbed a protein sandwich elsewhere because I needed it for our workout. I wasn’t getting anything for Finn.
He did insist on eating some of it, however, after he finished off the other snacks I had packed for him. That is a great example that there may be other things going on in our spouse’s thinking than we realize. They have reasons for doing things that may appear odd on the surface. I love how we talked about that afterwards and laughed.
I loved how you pointed out the lesson in that we both need to keep remembering: “Can I trust that other person to be in charge at this time and of that area?” It feels so liberating when you trust me. And I hope it is the same for you when I trust you.
And maybe life will be a little messier, but I think that’s a small sacrifice for “all the fun.” XoXo
February 8th, 2012 at 10:31 am
Dale,
You do make life more fun. I’m glad we’re in this together. Thank you for sharing your side. I know my readers will appreciate hearing the guy’s point of view!
XxOxX
J
February 13th, 2012 at 9:26 am
Dale, I loved the above quote from your wife! I am learning that every day. Andrew and I recently had an all out confrontation about my OCD tendencies. I am thankful for his insight and helping me evaluate why I get so hyped up about “insignificant” things. It has helped me to let him do things his way and appreciate his willingness to jump in! I also think it is true that we do have our areas of strengths and weaknesses in marriage and parenting…allowing the other person to shine in their particular strength is a good thing indeed. I am so very thankful for this opportunity to parent alongside someone who is so supportive. It makes me very sad to see instances where this is just not so in the lives of people around me. I am so blessed. I pray that my sons and daughter will be able to bring “ESP” as it is being called into their future lives. I was recently away from Andrew for a full week with the kiddoes and had full parenting responsibilities. What a great reminder to me of how much we do together and how much I NEED his insight, support, and help. Keep writing and posting, you encourage and remind us all of how blessed shared parenting and living can be. What a beautiful picture it is of Christ’ s Love and grace.
February 17th, 2012 at 10:58 am
Danielle, thanks… and you raise an important thing: to let our spouses be themselves! They can do things their way and get to work with how it jives with our way… and reach consensus. To nitpick, nag, or play at “roles” actually makes hypocrites of us, play acting instead of being who we really are (the one we came to love before we married). I just wrote on hypocrisy at myfaithhurdle.com and it’s speaks of all things false. We don’t want that… especially not in our intimate relationships with our spouse and children.
February 8th, 2012 at 6:02 pm
I am interested in that book review. I would like to know what you think of it and if it would be a good read for me.
I totally agree with the more responsibility=less nagging. That has been true in our house as I have gone to school and Eric stays home all day 2 days per week, our care of all household chores and childcare is much more even now. It has been so refreshing for me to let him put away the kids laundry and sweep the kitchen and make meals while I am at school working on things that challenge me intellectually and fulfill my need for work.
Eric and I have joined you on this journey of ESP and so far, it is great. Much to the chagrin of my family who thought it was crazy for me to be away from the kids at all, we are finding this model of parenting more helpful for me and Eric. We both are becoming better parents and more fulfilled people which I think helps our children more. And now our kids will go to Eric (even if I am around) for comfort or needs and not just rely on me for those things. Eric feels more attached to them also. It has been a really fun change for us, although I am so ready for school to be over!!
We love that we are on this shared parenting journey along side you,
Randi
February 9th, 2012 at 1:31 pm
I love that you’ve shared this. Randi, I specifically thought of you and E as I read about ESP. I know you’d love this book, both affirming, practical and full of purpose and hope!
Glad we are walking together practicing ESP, too.
February 9th, 2012 at 8:29 am
LOL I plugged in to comment before I saw that Dale commented, so I’m starting on my comment before I read what he wrote….
I remember playing with toddlers in the large church nursery in Florida during my early college years and listening to some of the other volunteers talk. One week, two of the women (wives and mothers, both) were talking about getting their husbands to DO things. A fresh-faced, unmarried 19 year old college student piped up loftily, “When I get married, I’m never going to nag my husband.”
Now, I hadn’t said it, but I was sitting there thinking it.
The two women turned to look at the bright young thing, sort of blinked at her, paused, and then the older of the two genuinely asked, without sarcasm, “How are you going to get your husband to do anything?”
And I gaped at her. I don’t remember what the bright young thing’s response was, probably because I was sitting there thinking very, very hard. If this was the lot for the cross-section of wives, how could I escape the cliche of nagging?
I’ve always disliked marital cliches and have refused to join them or encourage them, both before and since Glenn & I got married. And this is one of those.
Lucky for me, I married a goal-oriented man who likes to accomplish projects EVERY DAY. I rarely have to ask him to “do” anything, and even then I don’t have to ask more than once. (If memory serves.) He really is amazing, and I am always amazed and grateful–and tell him so–because that’s certainly not how it was in the house I grew up in!
For co-parenting, and the avoidance of nagging there, I will say that making certain that duties are clear to both partners saves a lot of grief, and I like how you pointed out that sharing on duties helps decrease nagging……ok, my curiosity’s got me, and I’ve got to read what Dale wrote now.
February 10th, 2012 at 10:46 am
Susan,
A great story to illustrate how prevalent the belief is, among the wise and married, that nagging is as the only way to “get men to do stuff.”
I am a huge advocate of efficiency and pulling our “fair share” and I suppose because I want the former this idea of shared responsibility seems like a beacon of hope. It’s more simple and time-efficient, for starters
Besides the fact that it works. Reminds me of a principle of stewardship – we don’t take care of things we don’t believe are ours.
February 13th, 2012 at 9:33 am
Open and loving communication is so key! It really just makes life easier! Sadly I was just in a situation where I observed this to not be so with someone who is dear to me. She bears so much responsibility on her own, and I just don’t get it! Unfortunately she thinks she is just “submitting” and carrying out her “wifely” responsibilities. Stewardship is a good way to put it. I think that some men have a wrong view of love too. Just buying your wife flowers and presents and telling her you love her is a very selfish love. Love is wiping noses, changing diapers, coming alongside and supporting. Especially for a young mommy with several children! If you ladies could pray for this person I am thinking of… I am not really sure how to help her:(
February 17th, 2012 at 10:08 am
Danielle,
I agree with you. Once a man and woman have tasted equally shared parenting it feels both natural and God-given, as if God intended children and home, life and responsibility to be laid equally across two shoulders, not just one set of male shoulders, strapping though they may be.
Would this friend of yours be willing to read some about other ideas of what submission does? I can think of a few books that are gentle in unearthing the possibility?
Praying for her tonight!
February 21st, 2012 at 9:29 am
Yes, I am sure she would. She is an avid reader. Thank you for your prayers.
February 23rd, 2012 at 1:39 pm
I’ve been praying for her Danielle. What book to recommend?
Well, besides Ruby Slippers (which I’d be happy to sign and mail you for her–let me know) I’d recommend The Gospel of Ruth: Loving God enough to Break the Rules (a good biblical approach to different roles for women) and Men and Women in the Church by Sarah Sumner… a major book that changed my mind about women’s roles in the church, which would probably tackle every passage she thinks means women need to be the scullery maids only at home. Sumner is very good about men and women needing one another!
February 10th, 2012 at 7:51 pm
I think I would really like that book. Barry and I share chores. Since I work full time and he works part time and does online school, he does most of the house work. I asked him if he thought I was a nag based on the definition and thankfully he said no. He said that it’s helpful for us to remind each other about things because life is crazy and we can be forgetful. But I would say he’s way more type A than I am, so I sometimes let things slide like cleaning the bathroom.
But I’m glad we share and I totally trust him with my laundry. I just keep all delicates in a separate area that I take care of. 
February 17th, 2012 at 10:11 am
Jules,
I love how you and Barry structure your marriage. A few topics of interest in this book that you’d love deal with the steps for sharing household chores. Here’s the cliff notes.
1- Together make up a list of all the chores you both think need doing
2- Decide together what constitutes doing them (my def of cleaning floors are different from Dale’s definition) and come to an agreement on what “getting it done” will mean
3- Decide together how often this chore needs doing and who will do it.
Doing this together is supposed to be of enormous help. I’m about to tackle some of the areas we could learn to share better in the coming weeks. I can let you know how it turns out
February 15th, 2012 at 10:09 pm
This site was a link that I followed from Christian Egalitarian Marriage and I just loved the post on Mr and Mrs Nag and the comments above. My wife and I have been married for 46 years and none of this kind of material (ESP) was around at the time that we began our spiritual journey. Thankfully we started out as equals and have always attempted to share the responsibility of both parenting and managing the home. The book sounds great and thank you for sharing your experience.
February 16th, 2012 at 10:36 am
Trevor,
Thank you for deciding to come visit RubySlippers. I’m glad you and your wife live as beacons of the long-lasting (dare I say sustainability) of marriage as equals before God. I would love to hear more from you.
Given your marriage of 46 years, could you suggest any advice to those of us in the early years of our marriages?
Gratefully,
Jonalyn
February 17th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
I’m curious how that works with breastfeeding? I don’t feel like I could be much of a breadwinner during this time!
February 19th, 2012 at 1:45 pm
Savvy,
I’m so glad you asked!
In the book they recommend both mother and father taking maternity and paternity leave. They also suggest pumping regularly so a good number of the feedings (at least 1/2) are possible for the father to do. They emphasize the nighttime split especially so both couples will have energy for all the work each day holds.
From my experience this can work very well, IF you don’t mind pumping. I was not a big fan of pumping, but I was also sort of possessive of my son during the first year. I had a deep down (problematic) belief that I could do all things better.
ESP tries to work on this. I’m so glad it is possible to work on it.
The ESP book offers some great ideas of how to work less hours, or more hours from home so breastfeeding or bottle-feeding can be part of your day. I highly recommend the book for the ways (even scripts) of how to advocate for doing an excellent job at your work without sacrificing the importance of family. It’s hopeful, practical and realistic.
And feel free to follow-up with more questions!
February 20th, 2012 at 12:42 pm
Thought-provoking, J. I love how far B and I have come in ESP. I love that “parenting” baby Ashlynn 13 years ago was different from “parenting” baby Brayden just 6 years ago. I love that we were/are willing to grow and change. I love that I have become more relaxed and less stressed. We continue to see what works best for our family. Now that I’m working outside of the home more, I’m interested in this…
how to advocate for doing an excellent job at your work without sacrificing the importance of family? Some weeks I feel like one or the other has to give.
February 23rd, 2012 at 2:05 pm
Aud,
I love that, too. Isn’t it a treat to know you’ve married someone who is open enough to grow and change?
I think you’d love this book! Very useful and realistic!!
February 21st, 2012 at 4:40 am
I think you’re right about lack of responsibility going hand-in-hand with nagging. I think, though, that for ESP to work, both parties have to have a certain level of maturity, as well as other factors supporting it.
Frankly, in my marriage, shared responsibility generally falls on me. (In his mind.) And his responsibility often just doesn’t get done. Yet he excels at nagging. I typically don’t nag… not because of any strength of character on my part… I just have enough in life to keep up with figuring out what I’m supposed to be doing and what my child is supposed to be doing. Figuring out what he’s supposed to be doing is his job. Instead, he focuses on figuring out what I’m supposed to be doing, and getting me to do it. Yet somehow I’m not successful at doing the 95% of everything which I never agreed to do. Surprise!
Nagging and irresponsibility… which causes which? Maybe I should start nagging more.
February 21st, 2012 at 3:28 pm
Verity3,
Appreciate your honesty here. I agree that maturity is key. But I also think (and please forgive me if I’m jumping to conclusions as I don’t know much about your marriage) that immaturity is a state that wives often coddle and protect.
In other words, sometimes immaturity is made possible by our codependency.
For instance, what would happen if the next time your husband nags, you suggest he do the job?
And if he says his own job prevents him then suggest you both consider ESP instead?
ESP is directly focused on removing all the responsibility in one sphere to one set of shoulders. Sharing tasks like child-rearing or bread-winning actually keep us humble because with such regular doses of both we don’t criticize.
If I have to do a trash run or shovel the porch every other time, I’m not about to critic my husband when he doesn’t do it perfectly. I know how hard it is to do it perfectly, how tiring it is and how inconvenient.
For too long I believe men have assumed that bringing home the bacon is the only way to find worth. In the process they end up dissatisfied (think of The Office male character like Stanley Hudson for instance) and in order to curb their anxiety end up micro-managing all the other areas they frankly have never experienced. I know from up-close and person experience of homes where the father figure micro-managed the mother’s cleaning, cooking, dressing in subtle but in the end unhealthy ways.
It spoke of a deeper dissatisfaction in this father, but it also damaged the mother who always felt a click behind what the father wanted. The kids experiences some very warped gender stereotypes as well. Think father as drill sargent and mother as scullery maid.
Irresponsibility is something that can change in the home, I believe you can change it…. but not unless your husband has something to do in the home, a task that will affect him personally if he fails to do it and will continue to be affected as you will refuse to fix it. Scary steps, but in my mind worth it.