After a shaming moment from an influential woman I admired, a male pastor standing in the shadows came up to me, “Jonalyn, you know the worst enemy of women?”
He paused with a slow, sad smile spreading across his long face, “Other women.”
My heart skidded into a hole.
I felt embarrassed to be female.
I felt disgusted at that woman.
And I vowed to do something about it. So far, I’ve spent two years co-authoring a blog on female friendship. I’ve spoken at women’s retreats and banquets for seven years and brought up this problem: women who are ugly to other women.
But I want to target the problem squarely here.
Women know the power of cruel women. “The sisterhood” feminists love to speak of is a comfort only if we recognize it’s also a myth.
This is why the maids working for civil rights in The Help find themselves more afraid of the women with their tools of social torture than the men with strength to beat them senseless.
In the movie Dogville, Grace finds herself accosted, literally chained by the women of the town. The women of the town, what damage we can do, right?!
In Dogville these vixen know how to degrade Grace’s beauty, her servanthood, her kindness. Their gang paying a social call seem more cruel than their husbands who visit to rape Grace each night.
I’m hesitant to confess, even if only to myself that I’d love the world more if there were less women in it.
Or maybe less of a certain type of woman. We have the types that oppress us.
Maybe “passive-agressive women” or “arrogant, male-hating, bossy, self-sufficient women” or “sexy air-heads” or “mousy Christian wives who control the church with a well-placed disapproving glance” or “atheist angry women” or ….
This is a theme I keep coming across in honest novels. This annoyance with a set of women.
In Angela Thirkell’s novels, a Mrs. Brandon let’s out a sigh and exclaims,”I want to go to a monastery.”To which her older, male friend corrects,
“I suppose you mean a nunnery.” But Mrs. Brandon was sure she meant a monastery.
For a world devoid of women sounded safe, pleasant and less vexing, provided of course that certain women like that brilliant writer Mrs. Moreland and, of course, the Headmaster’s wife were admitted.
We all, male, female, European, African, Hispanic, Asian, Indian, South American, et cetera have our little lists of tolerables and intolerables.
I want to know what kind of women bother you. And I want to know specifics. This isn’t a gripe fest as much as it’s a chance to be more honest and face that we aren’t quite as set up to enjoy a “sisterhood” like we’d like to believe.
Would you share what women are in your list of intolerables?
Men’s comments welcome as well, but please share your list of intolerable men.





You both should come see us. I have Sunday/Monday off. Adios amigos.
Tyler/Les/Aevyn
1. Back seat drivers – not only literally, but women (and sometimes men) who want to control a relationship but don’t want to take the lead in it or make any decisions.
2. Women who take pride in being rude and inconsiderate, calling it “being themselves.”
3. Anyone who uses the phrase “If you don’t know why I’m angry, then I’m not going to tell you.”
Keeping in mind that most everything that is an intolerance to me is something I do myself.
Sophie,
Fantastic examples.. especially back seat drivers in relationships.. good metaphor. I think I relate to all of these.
Here’s one of mine that you triggered in your examples:
Women who say “If you don’t have time you don’t really care.”
Isn’t that talked about in the Love Languages books? Some women’s language is spending time, so if a woman don’t receive that, she thinks the other person doesn’t love her?
I so do not like the theory of love languages. It feels like a corset that’s too narrow.
YES! Thank you! What a fantastic way to describe love languages. While it seems to be a helpful concept for many and the aim is good, I chafed at the constraints when my husband and I sat down to ‘discover’ ours. Love is many things to many people, and learning to speak plainly of our desires will prove to be more helpful than any book or theory will.
Erin,
Ditto… I do not like any book that puts people in boxes.
A few years ago, before my son was born I co-authored Coffee Shop Conversations: Making the Most of Spiritual Small Talk with my husband. The first few chapters cover a theology of how boxing people in destroys good conversation and our capacity to customize our love.
I think you and your husband would agree. Humans are just too varied to fit into a set of 5 categories!
Women who want me around only when I say what makes them feel good. The second I (or anyone) challenges or says, “are you sure about that”, they bolt and call you judgmental.
I am 40 and desire relationships with other women who push me toward Truth, who say to me, “oops Lisa, you might want to re-think that…” But I see that I am the minority in this place.
Lisa,
Any one who wants the truth is walking a narrow path with less companions.
People don’t want the truth and they buck out of relationships with those who do. I’d love to invite you to continue to comment here, because I can offer my willingness to suggest you re-think things.. if I notice them.
Btw, I think you’d enjoy my other blog on female friendship and moving toward honesty, as well.
p.s. that bothers me a lot, too. Perhaps it would help to really define what judgmental is and is not!
THANK YOU! I was beginning to think I was the only person on the planet ~ or maybe one of VERY few who thought this way!
I just recently had a “friend” tell me that I wasn’t a “true friend” because I was honest with her about her actions. In this specific case what she was doing was not only unethical, it was illegal. From her perspective it seems that a “true friend” supports no matter what & says what will make the other person Feel Good, regardless of whether it’s Biblical or not!
The irony for me was that I didn’t share ANY of what I knew with ANYONE. I did EXACTLY what the Bible commands ~ I went to her one-on-one.
Stephanie,
That is very frustrating.
I think you’d be able to find some good articles and support over at my blog on female friendship. For instance, this post on dead end friendships: http://letmebeme1.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/dead-end/
Excellent question! I hate having to deal with “mean girls,” the kind who gossip about you and try to ruin you because they feel competitive. Especially if they smile to your face and then spread their gossip behind your back.
I hate territorial behavior in women, especially if the territory they are “peeing on” is mine! (My marriage or my home . . .) I’m talking about rearranging things in my home or confiding in my husband in a way that puts a damper on our relationship, that kind of thing.
I hate finding out someone lies or takes things.
I hate finding out someone lies, too… isn’t is similar to them taking things, too?! Like they’ve taken the illusion I had that they were speaking good and true and stable things.
It’s like quicksand… Jesus’ story of the two houses comes to mind.
Territorial behavior is particular loathsome… I love that you shared something specific like “rearranging things in my home or confiding in husband in a way to put a damper on our relationship” sounds damaging, dangerous, asinine.
How do you respond to women like this?
“Men’s comments welcome as well, but please share your list of intolerable men.”
Me, much of the time.
Tim
Tim,
That is a cop-out! You have to list some attributes.
OK – Being petty; slipping into covetousness; a tendency toward self-centeredness; a superiority complex; acting shamefully; speaking sharply when what the other person really needs is a kind word; pride; and more. I can give instances of each in the fairly recent past. I’m a walking text from Romans 7, for crying out loud. Glad that I can rest in Romans 8:1.
Tim
P.S. G.K. Chesterton is my hero on this subject – “The Times newspaper … had asked a number of authors to write on the topic: ‘What’s wrong with the world?’. Chesterton’s answer at that time was the shortest of those submitted – he simply wrote: ‘Dear Sirs, I am. Sincerely yours, G.K. Chesterton’.” (http://librivox.org/whats-wrong-with-the-world-by-gk-chesterton/)
Tim,
Now you’re talking. These are very helpful, honest, humble … good. I adore GK.
Now, are you ONLY annoyed by all the vices you have?
Or are there a few vices you don’t have that bug you, too?
Pushing ya,
Jonalyn
“Or are there a few vices you don’t have that bug you, too?”
Jonalyn, I think that any time I see a vice in someone and get bugged by it, I realize that it is one I have either had or still have; it’s like looking in a mirror. There is more than one plank in my eye, and I am trying not to bash others in the head when I notice specks in their eyes.*
Tim
*Speaking of which, did you see my guest post on that passage over at The Radical Journey? http://theradicaljourney.com/2012/06/28/guest-post-how-to-make-a-memorable-point/
I did see that post, Tim. I loved the way you brought the bear robbed of her cubs and the millstone drowning to life.
I have a challenge for you, too.
In context, I don’t think Jesus is saying we are prohibited from criticizing or judging. Matthew 7:5 has Jesus judging them as hypocrites and in verse 7 he’s judging some people as “swine” so some judgment is clearly okay… at least for Jesus.
I would argue that Jesus wants us to judge, but only in an area we’re not blinded about by our own sin.
So for example, someone locked into an affair shouldn’t judge a woman flirting with a stranger. They can’t see clearly.
But, we are asked to judge things when we have clear vision. We all sin, but we not all slaves to sin.
Nor are we all slaves to all sin.
I’d say you are able to judge some areas of sin better than others. In fact, you are asked to do that, for your vocation and here by Paul, 1 Cor 5:11-13.
Want to push back?
Exercising that kind of judgment is truly Christ-like, Jonalyn. Jesus himself said we should be shrewd as snakes in dealing with the people around us. (Another great metaphor, by the way.)
For me it’s not a matter of judging, but of whether another person’s peccadillos peeve me in such a way that it interferes with my relationship with that person. Yes, they can. But usually it is in regard to a behavior or attitude I end up seeing in myself as well.
As you say, my own job requires discernment and judgment; but it is not moral judgment. I decide whether facts are proved and determine how the law applies to those facts, but I do not have to decide whether someone has acted morally or not (that is, whether they are a bad person). I sit in a court of law, not a court of justice. Are the two different? Very. If I think it would be best to render a decision one way but the law does not allow it, then I have to go with the law and not my own individual preference.
“Want to push back?” All right, here goes. An exercise in identifying ways that the shortcomings of others bug us is fruitful only insofar as it helps us understand ourselves better. That is, if it does not lead us to such an understanding so that we can love others better then it’s just clanging cymbals and resounding gongs and completely useless. (1 Cor. 13:1.) This is an area in my life that has needed – and still needs – a lot of work.
Tim
Tim,
Great distinctions. I appreciate your push back especially as to the ultimate purpose of judgement.
I’ve been reading this blog for awhile now but have never commented. Something sparked me today.
I agree with Sophie, the most intolerable thing to me, for woman and men, is being rude or inconsiderate and calling it “being themselves.”
Obviously we are all fallen humans and therefore somewhat riddled with faults. I personally tend toward some passive-aggressiveness. But by simply justifying your actions by “being yourself” is a cop-out. We may by nature be a certain way but that does not mean we are a slave to those things.
Sarah,
You and Sophie bring up a big tension that’s worth talking about more:
We want to know we’re accepted for who we are. But we blame our vices on things we cannot change, like our personality (I’ve heard many people do inconsiderate or selfish or emotionally immature things and then blame it on their personality).
Along with that we want to know we are loving people. Every person wants to feel that they can give love and receive love. Even if we don’t, we want to pretend we’re good… lovers.
I have too much investment in our human capacity to choose to say that any vice is stuck with us forever. I take a lot of hope in the verses in Exodus 20:5-6
“For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.”
The ultimate question is whether we love God. If we love him, we will end the cycle of family disfunction that can visit us for generations. We can break passive-agression and personality traits that seem “ingrained.” I think of how some can end alcoholism, suicide, eating disorders and fear-based living.
As followers of the God of Israel we don’t ever need to settle for unkindness as the way we, or our family, has and will always be. There is hope.
And I loved the way you said it, “we don’t have to be a slave” to those things.
Preach it!
Is “any vice stuck with us forever”? Not if we belong to God, because “he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 1:6.)
C.S. Lewis gave this insight on the growth of vice over the life of a person:
Christianity asserts that every individual human being is going to live forever, and this must be either true or false. Now there are a good many things which would not be worth bothering about if I were going to live only seventy years, but which I had better bother about very seriously if I am going to live forever. Perhaps my bad temper or my jealousy are gradually getting worse – so gradually that the increase in seventy years will not be very noticeable. But it might be absolute hell in a million years; in fact, if Christianity is true, hell is the precisely correct technical term for what it would be.
Tim
P.S. Yes, I know I’ve now cited both Chesterton and Lewis in the same comment page. I like dead authors. Of course, one could argue that they are both as alive as can be right now.
Woman who tear others down to climb above them, and keep them below themselves through continuing the habit: Tearing others down to keep oneself esteemed.
ah yes. The stiletto clamber.
WOW! The first thing I’ll say is thanks to everyone who has already shared! I got my “fingers burned” & my “toes stepped on” a time or two in reading here. I LOVE Tim’s point ~ I am MOST peeved by things that have been or still are areas of struggle for ME!
I am part of & work in a faith-based strongholds & addictions program. I began with a haughty, self-righteous attitude. I “saw” the program as being for people struggling with alcohol, tobacco, drugs ~ OUTWARD addictions. I didn’t “see” it as being for people struggling with temperance, humility, integrity ~ areas where I struggled, because those aren’t things that necessarily have a SPECIFIC behavior or action. The personification of those things can be quite varied. For me, I associated addiction with a habit that was obvious & outward. Praise the Lord for showing me that “I” had addictions, too & “I” had strongholds too ~ areas that were keeping me from a right relationship (1) with the Lord & (2) with others that are part of my life.
Stephanie,
Incredible confession and understanding here. I hope everyone reads your comment!
HI Jonalyn
Great post!!
Women who shut women out of a sense of territorialism and competiveness.
Ick.
Women who judge other women based on looks.
I am particularly guilty of this one for if a woman is gorgeous I tend to assume she lacks intelligence (as if a woman cannot be both) and I am also intimidated by beautiful women and I will remain standoffish….Not to say that the women I enjoy a warm rapport with are lacking in looks…like you!!!!
I def have some issues with women and will be writing about this more at my blog and in my next book project. Should pick your brain about this when you come out in October. Will be so good to see you again!!
Thanks, Pam!
Yes, stilettos make good weapons, but not great platform to defend territory
It’s so dang easy to judge by looks… I tend to think of the gorgeous factor similar to the lust factor. If I ignore a guy’s or girl’s beauty it’s not really appreciating it, it’s ignoring it.
So my plan of action lately has been, admit it. They are beautiful, lovely to look at, fun to look at… might be fun to sketch them, even.
I want to let other women be more beautiful, smarter, funnier, better writers, better read, more popular than me and accept that knowledge with open arms. It helps to talk about it.
Thanks for the opportunity and for your compliment.
Would love to talk about this more in October!!
English is my second language. Most of my friends are 100% Americans. I find it upsetting when I get corrected on the way I say things or how I express myself. I also don’t like how sometime people make a wide comment on this country and the way things are going “bad” because of immigrants. I love all of these sister in Christ and their heart are good but sometimes you have to be careful on how you correct people and what you say about the state of this country and who you blame it on.
“things are going ‘bad’ because of immigrants”… HELLO?! Aside from the VERY small minority of NATIVE Americans ALL of us can trace our roots to a foreign country, so at SOME point in time our families were immigrants, too. Also, I transcribe court cases for a living so I make a HUGE distinction between those who choose to come here LEGALLY & those who choose to come here ILLEGALLY!
I’ve heard a number of cases where it’s obvious that the person is ESL (English Second Language) ~ any recommendations on how/when/where to correct. It seems obvious to me that it should be done privately whenever possible, but what other insight can you provide?
As for correcting grammar…sadly, guilty as charged!
I’d say not a single person is here in the Americas without their ancestors coming form somewhere else. There was that thing called the land bridge after all. It was a 1000 km wide inhabited piece of land for millennia. And everyone here either came over that or by boat. No one is native to these two continents in the sense of not having their ancestors come from somewhere else.
I hope Mercy will share some insights as well!
My line of reasoning is that we don’t correct unless they ask us to be their English tutor.
Mercy,
A beautiful, vulnerable testimony of things we can be more sensitive to. Thank you for pointing out how wide brush-strokes of judgment (I’ll be post in on this in 2 days) actually harm our ability to understand other people.
Immigrants are not to blame for the state of this country.
And correcting your English? that’s about as unaware as correcting someone’s hairstyle. Seriously, it’s not a “help” to offer unless asked.
I’m hurt by women who try to use their knowledge or education or position to try to intimidate other women into simply agreeing with them because “they sound like they know what they’re talking about.” The other women get intimidated into simply following along in the wake of the lead woman’s power, without realizing the value of their own voice, and more often than not, the lead woman gets used to being followed and not only doesn’t enable the other women to grow and spread their wings in exploration of ideas and independent thought, they begin to actually use group pressure to quash those people who stand out back into their place. Those kinds of women are like ideological Amazons maintaining their role as the woman on top.
Also women who are cliquish with giving love to others. I can be that way by becoming close with someone and sometimes brush away opportunities to love because I’m comfortable, and I have a friend who teaches me so much in this area by example. I annoy the myself through my own thoughtlessness sometimes.
I am annoyed by women who are lazy by letting men lead all of the time, and who turn on the men when a bad decision is made, completely ignoring their own culpability in the non-decision-making part they had in the process. I see these women particularly in need of grace.
(I do want to add, though, that I am also surrounded by several women who really are my “sisterhood” and we DO speak truth to one another, but have also built a trust that is full of love. We hold up one anothers’ arms at times against the things that push the other down, learning more of our own faults and hang-ups as we support one another.)
Oh – one other really hurtful thing – expecting other women to live by their own convictions when they’re not black and white issues, and women who treat their sexuality like it’s something they should hide from other women. Uncomfortable!
Mandy,
Some great examples here. The last one was unique and helpful to me. There are many women who treat their sexuality like it’s something to hide, even from other women.
Several of your examples made me think of how we often get annoyed by women who abuse their power, either taking too much (intimidation) or giving up too much (non-decision maker).
What a worthy topic. I am oh so very tempted to add to the things that annoy me about women, but I will respect your wish Jonalyn. I have certainly seen my share of women bashing, manipulating each other and so forth. This always confused me. Young girls seem to learn these peer destroying tactics while still in school, while we boys were busy jumping off roofs and hitting each other with wiffle ball bats. But as an adult male I have in fact run into every listed intolerable trait. Passivity, condescension, shame and all that crap. So apparently bad behavior knows no sex. We males still pretend we don’t use the same hurtful social tactics that females use and we foolishly act like it doesn’t affect us… We do, it does. So here’s my understanding: (you ladies will probably be years ahead of me, so sorry if I’m not actually adding to the conversation) In my experience guys use these traits as a really poor defense. When they are threatened, their place in the company friend group or place in the home. I know I can be a jerk, and I think it reactionary. I’m passive aggressive when I’m worried about something and scared to speak up. And I am domineering when I feel initialed to more respect than I’m getting. I think it’s that way for many men. So is this similar to why women get “catty?” Defending insecurity or lack of acknowledged worth? Anyway, in my opinion the most “intolerable” man would be the passive aggressive man. When people won’t speak up and say how they feel it is so hard on a relationship, any relationship Guys assume other guys don’t care so they don’t speak up until one day it becomes a massive argument. Feel your feelings man.
I love this.
“Feel your feelings, man.”
I’m quoting you on twitter right now!
Huh, that’s a first.
Speaking of men and women both having problems with how we handle our emotions, I read something about the positive and negative manifestation/sides to personalities, how for example (using myself here) I can be emotionally nurturing with my friends and invest myself in others’ well-being, but also be very retaliatory when hurt by someone or something. My comfort level with my emotions can sometimes become self-indulgent and selfish when I’m focusing on myself.
Women are socially engineered it seems like to be nurturers, and on the flip side too much of that focus causes a situation where cattyness is alive and well. Men are taught to be invulnerable, and so their equally harmful negative behaviors come out because of the imbalance.
I notice the discomfort many people have with sitting quietly with a person who just needs to cry, and just be with someone, for example. I used to find that uncomfortable, but it’s something my husband never saw as difficult, and through a process of emotional healing in certain areas, I learned the joy of just “being” – sometimes by myself, or sometimes with a person. I had a friend who recently was getting a little snarky, and sometimes just had moments when she would feel really weepy. It wasn’t until she sad for a moment with me and made an inventory of recent things happening that she realized how much had been happening, and then she just bubbled over and cried. She had not given herself permission to live with her emotions, and she had ended up with a junk drawer full of them, and it overflowed into everything. How much better would the world be if we all learned a better comfort level with feeling our feelings, and being there for someone else when they needed help feeling theirs! We all have such a desperate need for grace.
sat* not “sad”. sorry
Our emotions can become self-indulgent, but I agree with you and Jake that if we listen to what we are feeling, pay attention to those “lights on our souls’ dashboard” as I wrote in Ruby Slippers, then we get a chance to know why are bodies are acting as they do.
I think the key to not becoming selfish about our emotions is feeling more, not feeling less.
I am disappointed that there is an accepted and practiced action of being good work friends with a woman until she needs to demonstrate her knowledge/confidence in front of men, acknowledgment of that woman in that setting is perceived as a liability. I have been guilty of this myself.
Love your honesty, Jancy. Thank you!
Here is my suggestion on correcting me. If we are friends, learn to understand me, don’t correct me because I get that from strangers. Another thing is. I dress like I dress and talk to with my hands (I am Cuban) because is who I am. I am frank because in my culture we do not hide our feelings. I wear red lipstick because I look good with it. I might put my hands on your husband’s shoulder ( I am learning not to do this), because touching anybody is a sign of love and fellowship. And yes, all Latin women are great in bed. Ha ha you would be surprise how many women are intimidated by that fallacy.
Mercy,
I enjoyed what you shared “learn to understand me.”
You’ve given me words to explain why I’m more physically affectionate toward men… this was the way I was raised to show affection toward my grandpa and uncle. We always kissed when we said hello and embraced. My grandmother still holds my hand when she sees me.
I will be quoting what you shared “touching anyone is a sign of love and fellowship.”
Thanks for stating and unveiling the final fallacy. Always love hearing that one
I would do away with women who are jealous of other women for WHATEVER reason. These are women who are already pretty and or strong and or smart and or educated and or gifted – (fill in the blank) anyway. They just don’t think they are. They don’t know they are already pretty special and loved by God.
I have a plan to get rid of them all too! Pray for the Holy Spirit to show them how awesome and valuable they really are. That’ll fix ‘em! I think that would end a lot of the bullying that goes on. Period.
“That’ll fix ‘em.!” Ha, yes it will, Dianne. What a great plan!
Dianne,
Well said. Sometimes I think the women who seem the most talented in all these areas are the most insecure of these strengths.
Why do you think this is?
Love your plan, btw.
Throughout high school and my first year and a half at college, I couldn’t stand girls unless they were at least 8 years older than me. Boys seemed way simpler, easier to talk to and, honestly, more fun to play with (when I was little). Now, fortunately, all but one of my very good friends are women my age (and sometimes their mothers), but there is one group in particular I can’t stand: The happy/crappy girls. I think in highschool they were the cheer leaders or hot girls, and usually the sorority girls in college. My college didn’t have sororities, but we still had them.
I call them “the happy girls” because the world has to be literally breaking apart for life to not be INCREDIBLE and AWESOME no matter WHAT!! (and if they’re Christians, PTL and all God does is set us up on fluffy clouds all our life). It is an outlook on life that I cannot relate to, and that treats my “well this is going good but that could be better” with either dismissal or disdain for not being happy. When I was young I believed that they all just lived very uncomplicated, easy lives. Now, I can see that they hurt to, but how can you even communicate with that kind of outlook?
One of my favorite things to get people to think about on this topic is “Why are chronically sad people considered sick but chronically happy people are considered wonderful?” After all, aren’t they both very real emotions?
TJO,
Loved this point and question.
Yes, even though who live with what psychologists would call “denial” are still hurting.
To muffle our doubt and grief actually makes us less human, we don’t weep as the ultimate Human, Jesus, knew how to do.
How do you communicate with those who smother you with happiness?
If I’m close to them I like to ask these questions
1- do you think it’s okay to be sad?
2- do you think God likes happy people more than sad people?
3- what about being angry or upset scares you?
This last one is really worth listening long and hard about.
Your question about sadness is apt. I love that you’re challenging people to think about this. What has helped you lead people toward the Christian theology of lament and be this kind of culture changing and brave?
I’d love to hear more of your journey.. feel free to comment here or email me: jonalyn at soulation dot org
You are a woman that gets what Soulation is about: becoming fully human.. not just another happy/clappy Christian.
btw, did you mean “happy/clappy” or “happy/crappy” both fit in a way
Hm, I like the “happy/clappy” label too! I think that “the happy girls” fall into only-happy and happy-or-nuclear-holocaust. The latter is what I meant by “happy/crappy,” and I think your “happy/clappy” works well for the former – thanks for the terminology help! Thanks also for the questions to ask – I will be keeping those in mind.
The spiritual side of my journey stems from years of being told all the wrong things about sadness, grief, depression and suicide. Slowly, I’ve learned what was wrong, why it was said, and how it affected my personality. Now I’m trying to reverse a lot of that, and have finally found people who have, for various reasons, experienced the same thing and realized what a load of $#!% it is. Even before getting inappropriate reactions from older “wiser” Christians, I had trouble trusting people, so that basically pushed me all the way to complete hiding and I fell back on my innate perfectionism, competitiveness and introversion to protect myself.
It’s funny that you use the term “brave” – until about a year ago, I was afraid to open my mouth about much, let alone my problems or how to encounter other people’s. This was true even though I have always wanted to communicate my hurt so others wouldn’t be alone in theirs, because I often have been. My loneliness has sometimes been by choice, but I learned how to be alone in pain by force of circumstance long before that. Now, I am starting to have opportunities to share some of what i’ve learned in writing and with people God puts in my path, but for now I’m still trying to distill what I know down into firm beliefs and what I believe into communicable words and stories.
At the end of the day, if I am in a discussion there are some points I tend to harp on:
1. Jesus actually prayed that God would take away the trial he was in. Yeah, he followed it up with “your will be done,” but he begged for something else.
2. “Having more faith” will not inherently make you physically or psychologically more healthy.
3. Life really sucks, God knows it, we can tell Him without offending Him, and He won’t think we’re “lesser Christians” for it.
God would rather we be honest with him, even if that means screaming at him and accusing him of being horrible, than that we pretend everything’s fine. Because:
a. A real relationship requires that openness
b. He’s got answers
c. He knows you’re mad anyway, putting it out on the table and trying to work it out can’t be more sinful than the alternative.
“He knows you’re mad anyway, putting it out on the table and trying to work it out can’t be more sinful than the alternative.”
That is so awesome, TJO, too true!
I just love this. I can relate so thanks for your thoughts here!
Backstabbers, opportunistic floozies, jaded old biddy’s who use their so-called experience and “wisdom” as if it were the Gospel truth, women who suppress their emotions, passive sniveling co-dependents stuck in the role of being victimized…I sometimes hate being a woman myself ha! Cold and coquettish socialites at church for goodness sake!! How appalling. Controlling and intimidating women who project their insecurities onto others, the women who are all paranoid that if you even smile at their husband you are automatically a seductress ha ha…geezzz maybe it’s time to find another church.
I read this with a heavy heart, as for a period of my life I may have agreed with you. Not being comfortable with this feeling toward women, I decided to try to figure out the source as well as how I could use my own responses to help break the patterns around me.
What I found is that the biggest factor in the “intolerable behavior” was the seemingly insatiable desire for women to appear perfect – digging deeper, I found that it was very important for that particular group of women to feel they are meeting a standard set by men in the church. I could go on and on about what I learned, but in general, it was perfectionism. In that perfectionism was distrust, and a fierce protection of how their lives were projected.
The hardest part of my decision to learn why this was happening, was overcoming my own insecurities in order to help break down what was separating us as women. You don’t realize how much of it you embody, largely due to this same distrust, until you decide to respond in love.
It’s been five years since I made that decision, and I do have that “Sisterhood” – but it took work. It took work because the biggest lie we are told as women is that our biggest enemy is other women – and we believe that lie, neglecting to see that our true enemy, in this case, is our insecurity.
I grew up in a household full of boys, and at this point in my life I can honestly say that getting along with women is just as easy as getting along with men. Difficult, mean people are not isolated to a specific gender – I’ve encountered them everywhere, and at times the best thing you can do is make a conscious decision to keep them out of your life and pray for them (sometimes it comes down to protecting the changes I made in myself, in this way).
I have experienced both the bullying from female sources, and rape by a man. I must say I prefer the bullying, no question about it – though I understand you were using the example to illustrate further the point you were driving.
Niki,
Beautiful wisdom in your response. Thank you.
It hurt me to read this – how are we to stand unified, and come together to manifest a greater will than our own when there is so much hatred?
“I would love the world more if there were less women in it.”
I wouldn’t, because each of those women we’ve come across that have caused us to stop and lick our wounds has also initiated a new awareness and has charged us with the duty to love better.
It is love, not unifying against a common enemy (ourselves?) that will rebuild that trust in one another. In both movies you mentioned, women looked for a scapegoat – how could they turn against men who provided for them? It wasn’t something they could do, as it would affect their lives, their children. They placed blame on what society taught them to place it on: each other.
I really want to see where you’re coming from, but I cannot enable this demonizing of women – the very thing that I myself have worked so hard to overcome and help other women overcome in order to fully embrace and grow in the faith.
Frances,
I agree with everything you said in this comment.
I love the women I meet, I even wish I could meet more women if I could, that I could learn from more of them. However, because of the unkindness in women I have met I have realized that if women all continue to treat people with unkindness, I don’t want more of that in the world.
Since so many women lodge unkindness in their souls, nursing it deep and rich, I find this type of women gives all women a bad name.
I wrote this post to invite women to stop blaming each other, and to begin admitting that we are unkind to each other, that we need to stop that. This post was meant to begin confessing that we are not kind to each other, even continuing the cycle of unkindness by demonizing those who have hurt us.
This post is a step one in many steps: admitting there is a problem among women.
Does that help clarify?
Sad to say how damaging it all is. Anyone of you who’s seen the film “Water” will see the horror of women’s behaviour to other women… like the story of crabs who won’t let other crabs climb out of the basket of fishermen. Female circumcision continues in many parts of the world because of mothers and grandmothers EVEN when fathers and grandfathers have agreed to change. Mothers in parts of Asia don’t want their daughters to go to school because they are afraid they won’t get a husband since they will be seen as unable to take care of the house and family – and will end up costing a larger dowry to GET a husband – this EVEN when a father might think a learned daughter would be more appreciated OR could provide for the family and never marry but bring in wealth, etc. I speak from experience – not just hearsay. The list could go on…. and on and on. Men can be competitive – but they have a strange solidarity, a pack mentality – even when doing wrong – with each other that I do not see with women. I sometimes think I am more of a feminist than most church going women I know!
You’ve highlighted a very real problem, Kieran. Women have internalized patriarchy in a way to keep women down, if not below them, then even with them. The crabs pulling on the intrepid crab who wants to climb out is perfect.
Women will never learn solidarity until they, as Niki points out so well above, we learn to unearth our perfectionism and the insecurities that grow from this pack of lies.
We are not capable of climbing higher as women if we pull stronger women down from their heights. We cannot enjoy being equal image bearers of God if we are sure other women threaten our patch of land to till and grow.
There are quite a few men who are better feminists than women I know.
The kind who use scripture and God’s Name to mask their fears. Ex: “I feel the Lord told me not to…” instead of saying, “I don’t want to…”
I know what you mean. It bugs me when men do that too, especially me!
Tim
Enjoyed reading your Hi-Yo Silver post
Thanks Jonalyn. Did you see the one on Sh’ma on Friday?
Randall,
A good example of cowardice. Though I’m often wondering what this masks… fear of being rejected?
The women I, ashamedly, feel are the most intolerable are women that reduce themselves down to roles (i.e. mother, wife, daughter, etc.) that all depend on another person, usually a man.
I feel they are limiting their humanity, and certainly not aspiring to be like Christ. But what’s worse is that they judge me for not living the way they do. I am considered strong-willed, feminist (in a bad, Wayne Grudem’s definition, sort of way), rebellious, and ultimately ugly.
So I am hurt by the way they think of me and talk about me, but yet I am also hurting for them because I feel they are missing out on the potential God has for them and are defining themselves by a man rather than by Jesus.
Marie,
Powerful words here. I agree with you that these women are hard to tolerate.
Limiting their humanity. very true.
Isn’t it amazing that Jesus came to set prisoners free and yet some women take that message to only mean the menfolk?
Sometimes do you think we judge women as limiting themselves to roles, but that is just our outside perception of them? How do you know that women are limiting themselves to a particular role, or defining themselves solely by that? Sometimes I wonder if women who work outside of their homes judge me as a woman who defines myself as a mother, just because that is what takes up the majority of my time. But, I don’t limit myself to that at all. I do feel called into this role, though. And we are in the process of adding more children to this full home.
I think there’s nothing wrong with being a full-time mother, but it depends on how far you let that role go. There’s a difference between letting that role take up a majority of your time and letting that role be the definition of who you are. I grew up in a home with a full-time mother, and when someone asked me what career I wanted I always said “I want to be a mom.” And I think that’s great. But as I’ve grown into an adult I’ve seen that there is definitely a line between role and crutch, and it is easily crossed. My mother seems to have let the role define her. And maybe she doesn’t want it to and maybe she has aspirations beyond that. For example, she went back to school and got her Bachelor’s and Masters. And yet, now that her children are having children, she has chosen to spend all her time as a grandmother instead of using those degrees to expand herself further. As Jonalyn and Marie mentioned above, I believe she is using the role of grandmother to hide her fears of venturing back into a world she has been out of for 32 years. And no, I don’t think the choice to be a mother or grandmother in itself is a bad thing, but I think when someone uses these roles as a crutch out of fear is when it becomes unhealthy.
And sadly, yes, I agree that sometimes that line between role and crutch may be perceived incorrectly by others. But I think what’s important here is not how others judge you, but how you yourself act. If you are confident in your role and know there’s more to you than that, wonderful. But if you let their judgment become truth, that’s when there is a problem. The judgments can go both ways. Again, I always wanted to be a mother, and I will be, but I am also a web designer and am proud of that. However, my mother sees it as a horrible thing that I haven’t had children yet and I’ve been married a full three years! But that judgment won’t keep me from both having children and pursuing my career. And I think that’s what Jonalyn and Marie are getting at. Whether it’s a mother judging a career woman or a career woman judging a mother, the problems are A) if they’re judging each other based on the others’ role and B) if they let their own roles, and the judgments of others, govern who they are. As you said, I could be completely wrong about my mother, but ultimately it’s not for me to judge her, it’s for her to decide who she is (and I really hope she proves me wrong).
Helpful distinction, Becky, between motherhood as a role and motherhood as a crutch.
I’d love to do some more posts on motherhood as a good things and a bad thing and tease apart the reasons for both.
And, appreciated your comment that how others judge you need not decide what you will do.
As we find friends for the journey, we can become quite picky with our filter of who we listen to. Some women will not understand that I mother and preach and run a non-profit and love to cook.
But I still do.
Me, myself? I find it intolerable when women who are moms can ONLY talk about the tedious parts of motherhood. It drives me out of my mind. Especially when their are women in the group who are not mothers. The lack of sensitivity really ticks me off. Young moms, your single girlfriend does not want to talk about the woes of potty training your 3 year old boy for 30 minutes. Just no.
Also I cannot bear to carry on conversation when a woman is constantly deferring all opinions to her husband. Including when he isn’t even present in the conversation. What? I thought this was you & me talking?
Also? Women who are total martyrs. And, I have a hard time with the perpetually depressed.
And now from my list, I think perhaps I am the intolerable woman who can’t bear to tolerate other women!
Erin A.
You made me smile. Thanks for being this honest and open to wanting to grow, too… at least I sensed that in your final line.
Women who say, “just you wait till…” “someday you’ll understand…”
Makes me feel like less of a person, less of a wife, less of a mom. Their expectations are not my own. I often see this from the older woman lording it over the younger, less experienced woman. And at times I see it vice versa. Maybe I will experience the same or similar things, but that doesn’t mean ill have the same perspective!
Also…I’ve seem damage done with sarcastic woman who say mean things but then brush it off by laughin saying, “oh Im just kidding!”
One of my downfalls…is smiling and acting like im listening but I got lost a while back!
Anna,
I grew (and am growing) up with the problem of “Just you wait till..” in my relationship with my mom. Having grown up in a house full of boys, my desires for my life are very different from what she sees a normal, so there’s a lot of “When _____ happens to you, you’ll want these things.” I hope to change and grow as I experience life, but hearing that makes me feel like there’s one type of person I can become, and one I don’t really want to be. So…yeah. I definitely relate on that!
It is a de-personalizing comment.
It makes us begin to doubt what we believe, feel, want. And in the end it is a corset on our souls.
I’m so thankful the God of Israel never did that to his people. When I think of the differences between, say, Esther, Ruth and Abigail, for instance, I think of the freedom before us.
In the end, though, I think those who say, “just you wait” or “you’ll understand when” are claiming more power over us than we’ve given. So it’s actually a grab-y posture, not one of trust that we have the intelligence to find our own way.
Anna,
I hear you! wait, what did you say?
Seriously, these are VERY good examples. I relate to each.
Competitive women who resent talent in other ladies, who accept ‘compliments’ that compare them to others, ie, ” you sing better than so and so” vs.” You sound lovely”… i dont see benefit to any compliment if within resides an insult to another human.
Ditto to that!
“An exercise in identifying ways that the shortcomings of others bug us is fruitful only insofar as it helps us understand ourselves better. That is, if it does not lead us to such an understanding so that we can love others better then it’s just clanging cymbals and resounding gongs and completely useless. (1 Cor. 13:1.)”
All of that sounds so nice – until the “others” happen to be psychopaths (no hyperbole intended.)
There are some relationships with some hybrids of humanity that do not merit or require “love” (as it seems most people use the word) – but escape and survival.
I also think, contrary to some comments along the way here, that we do not struggle only with things in others that are “really” things in ourselves. Yes, we all have a certain *potential* for all manner of evil, but no, I do not think that specific self-guilt is a necessary prerequisite to the loathing of specific evils in others. For example, I loathe the evil of pedophiles, but I can honestly say that, no, it has never once crossed my soul to sexually exploit a child.
Have I struggled with “sexual” sin? Yes. But it crosses a line into wholly different logical and practical categories (and vapid pop-psychology) to drag into these discussions an odd egalitarianism of sins, if you will, and call it ‘non-judgmental love.’
TAXY,
I would agree with you in that some relationships require escape and survival. However, given how a psychopath is unable to protect and love, unable to safely guard your love, unable to return your love without twisting it back onto you to hurt you, given all this I would say the most loving thing is to escape yourself. This actually helps the psychopath by removing the material (your body, your soul) they were using. It also prevents them from creating more chaos and destruction in their wake which guards them from hurting themselves.
So while the outcome (removal, escape, survival) don’t look the same as love usually looks, I believe the motive can also be loving.
Great example that there is evil in others that truly disgusts and bothers us and this evil is not in ourselves, not in the same way.
I do not believe in an egalitarianism of sins.
Thank you for your points, I appreciate them.
Jonalyn
Divisive women are very hard to deal with. Divisive people in general are hard; yet, oddly, a male friend and I both agreed that based on our experience the divisive people we’ve known have usually been women. I’m not entirely sure why, and it puzzles me. But, there you have it.
The worst thing about someone divisive, though, is that few people can recognize the trait. It hides itself. And if Person C is divisive, unfortunately, that person has an effect on Person A’s relationship to Person B. Then Person A and B blame each other for relational problems when actually it was C who began it. Poisonous. The movie All About Eve reminds me of such a scenario.
Nicole,
Divisive… yes.
I think one reason divisiveness flourishes among women is the culture of shame that rewards women for competition and disengagement with each other so they can get what they need:
1- a man
2- children
3- a job
all in limited supply, too, or so we think.
The culture of shame can be sliced apart, when we admit our fears and vulnerabilities.
I’m going to add All About Eve to my queue. Thanks for the comment!