“In so many ways our culture trains us to be unfit for friendship.”
Paul Wadell as quoted by Dan Brennan, Sacred Unions, Sacred Passions
After we got married, my husband invited his long-time friends, B and his wife, A, to visit. Their kids came along. We took them Jeeping and ATVing. At one point B and I took the kids for a short trip down a side road.
I was excited to show their daughter how fun an ATV was and felt proud of my off-roading skills. So when our quad slipped and the back wheel got lodged downhill under a log, I felt nervous and embarrassed. I waved B down for help. He circled around back and muscled the ATV out of the spot. Even though we were out of danger I still felt nervous.
Being alone with B made me nervous. I felt tense being alone with a man who I admired, appreciated, whose company I enjoyed.
If I’m honest, I really was not anxious we’d do anything elicit. I didn’t want to start making-out in the woods. But I felt nervous because I had this unexamined belief that since I was a woman I was untrustworthy alone with a man.
And though I have little evidence that I am unsafe around men (I have no marital infidelities in my record, I work professionally with spiritual direction for men of all ages in one-on-one settings, I’m open about my struggle and victory against lust, I have found Jesus strong enough to keep veering me toward love, truth, confession and change) I was still nervous.
Being alone with B in the woods made me think, again, that regardless of Jesus’ power, I’m not to be trusted with a guy, that I’ll sabotage the goodness of a marriage, that something about him would make me lose control.
Nothing of the sort happened, and I’m proud to say I’ve since investigated this strange anxiety. There’s a reason for it.
And it’s not simply a matter of lust and sin.
Romantic Ghetto
“Maleness aches for femaleness, femaleness for the male.”
Ronald Rolheiser as quoted by Dan Brennan
My uncle used to double-blink his eyes telegraphing affection for me. I would blink my eyes back in a sign that I received and returned his love. My grandpa used to tell me he loved me every time I greeted and parted from him. My brother and I used to tickle and jump on each other when we were kids. These male relatives taught me ways to appreciate maleness in a way that was not tinged with romance. But if I had studied Sigmund Freud better I would have known that such affection cannot exist.
Freud has narrowed men and women’s interaction into two options: romantic or elicit. We either get married or have affairs. All physical touch is sexual touch. All female ache for male and vice versa is simply and only repressed sexual desire. Men and women cannot be friends, or so Freud taught us. When Harry Met Sally repeats the lesson.
Thank you, Freud.
If we take Freud seriously we have to be suspicious of girls holding hands, the gentle way a mother washes her newborn, the way a father cuddles with his two year old, any touch between man and woman as repressed sexual desire.
Intercourse becomes the ultimate purpose of the male and female bodies. You can imagine what this does for the modesty issue. Freud genitalizes brothers and sisters, mothers and sons, fathers and daughters. No relationship between the sexes is safe from Freud’s swath.
Freud effectually erased the hundreds of years and thousands of examples of men and women who found they could be close without romance clouding their relationship. (Take a look at Bishop of Geneva Francis de Sales (1567-1622) and the widow Jane de Chantal’s (1572-1641) 18 year friendship and their spiritual correspondence. These two were even buried together).
An example from modern times may help. I have a brother, a sibling named Jacob. That I can, contra Freud, enjoy close, creative, mutual, affectionate friendship with him doesn’t impress many people.
But brother/sister closeness is supposed to be the model for how to interact with those of the opposite sex (1 Tim 5:2, Mark 3:35). But that I could enjoy a close, creative, mutual, affectionate friendship with B, or any other non-blood relative.
Danger Zone . . . right?
I’ve found an advocate, an apologist, for the third way of male female relationships. Dan Brennan a blogger, speaker and visionary on cross-gender friendships writes in his book Sacred Unions, Sacred Passions (2010), that male and female friendships are not fated to inexhorably slip into a romantic ghetto. If you like books that stand on the shoulders of a well-read author, you’ll love Brennan’s ability to pull from hundreds of books on cross-gender friendship. He is careful in thinking, passionate and (the best!) practices his ideas. Brennan is close with women besides his wife. He has me convinced of something I touched on in Ruby Slippers: that men and women are made for each other–beyond marriage. Men and women were designed to have physical, emotional, spiritual closeness without romantic entanglement. This ought to be very good news for unmarried people, but it also points back to the purpose of following Jesus: to love each person, male and female, as nearly and dearly as we can love our brothers and sisters. The kingdom of God is a place where there is no barrier between Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female, but we are all one. This means we can recognize the beauty and attractiveness, power and sensuality, significance and vulnerability of each person? Can I do that with a guy? Guys, can you do that with girls? I think we can.
I could talk for a long time about the topics Brennan introduces (a teaser at the end), but I will instead offer a few tips to pursue opposite sex friendship. These worked in ages past, they worked for Brennan and they work for me in my friendship with B.
How do I find opposite sex friends and cultivate them in integrity, love and delight without fearing I’m giving the wrong impression?
- Start by looking for friends who are strong people in strong relationships (marriage and friendships). These will be individuals who be versed in the practice of delight. I’m often drawn to talk with men who understand joy (physical, emotional, spiritual) in life, they’re vulnerable enough to talk about things they love. If this man is married I want to see if they’re good at delighting in their spouse? If they’re single do they know how to delight in their same-sex friends? How does this delight look it? It means you find beauty, laughter, play, joy in someone else. A good husband will know how to delight in his wife without preying upon her as his possession. Delight in another person means we know how to find and we can easily smile over the beautiful things in them: body and soul. As we grow closer, I grow less and less afraid to compliment B. I find I can observe what is beautiful in him because I’ve already cultivated that practice in my relationship with my husband. My husband is beautiful in his humor, his hands, his eyes, his long listening, his curiosity (etc) and while we share more romantic intimacy (e.g. a sexual language which I share with no one else), I’ve also learned other men are beautiful. B is beautiful and I’ve found I can be happy to express things like, “I’m going to take a picture of you with your kids, this light would be perfect to watercolor you,” when he has his shirt off. To not be afraid to let him know that I notice and appreciate him, “You are very embodied in how you love your daughters, it’s cool how affectionate you are with them.” I recognize B is not a stumbling block, but a friend, a chance to see more about God and God’s love.
Natural Friendships - we are each naturally drawn to certain people over others. When I tell people that my girlfriend and I both drove 4 hours in one day to spend two hours together, I get positive feedback. No one ever says, “Why isn’t Dale coming with you?” or more pointedly,”Why do you have a need to spend time alone with her?” But when I choose to spend time with a guy friend, the questions begin, as if my choice indicates some unhealthy desire to be alone with the opposite sex–alone without my husband. How can I respond to this suspicion? I begin by asking myself, “Does this man help me know more about myself, God, the world and my husband? Does time with him grow me?” If yes, I move forward. Think about men God has placed in your life. Do you love the way this guy sees things like you do? Do you like how he listens and asks question? Is this someone you’ll naturally land on subjects that make you smile with enthusiasm? Sirach says a friend is a gift from God, a sturdy shelter, a treasure (Sirach 6:14-17).- Be aware that friendship with opposite sex friends is like same-sex friendship, it involves intensity, affection, devotion and lots of misunderstandings (Ruth 1:16). I will do our best to be honest and kind, but I will fail. Forgiveness, grace and delight will cover a lot of sins. As B pointed out to me, it’s awkward learning how to be friends when your parents never modeled opposite sex friendships. It just wasn’t done, the romantic or elicit narratives were too strong. So you feel anxious and awkward, like trying to swim without any models or teachers. You get water up your nose. Calling B to ask his feedback on this post was awkward, but knowing that I love and care about him and our friendship and trusting that he is a gift from God, makes me bold to keep trying.
- What can I talk about? Close and vulnerable conversations are life-giving, not illicit. However, take time to ask yourself why you are sharing? is it for the sake of loving well? or is it because you want to form a bond over and against your marriage? If the latter then we have left out principle one above, we are not strong, we are not building strength into all our friendships, we are instead pitting this friendship against all others. It is because we delight in our spouse (or other friends) that we we have built a platform for better loving other men (or women).
- What do we do about the initial awkwardness of touch? I used to be afraid that electricity would fly between B and I if we touched.
When you only have the romantic narrative to inform male/female interaction, it’s easy to mistake the makings of a friendship for a romance. However, siblings touch without misunderstanding. I can ruffle my brother’s hair and hug him without being accused of inappropriateness. Originally, my love and devotion to A and my husband kept me away from befriending B. I avoided him and most one-on-one interaction. But this was to sacrifice knowing B. But as we grew closer as couples I found avoiding friendship and, more specifically, touching B felt more awkward than touching him. I enjoyed our conversations and similar perspective. What to do? It helped me to realize that Jesus modeled touch between men and women in a way that was neither promiscuous or romantic. Jesus touched women with healing, with joy, with dignity, with love and even affection. I know my view needed to change. Some of my favorite times visiting B and A were when B and I cooked together in his kitchen, making food for our families. I felt at home with him. I used to say, “I’m sorry,” if I brushed his elbow with my arm on my way to cut mushrooms. But as time when on I’ve learned. First, touching B was not wrong. This made a lot more sense as I realized how affectionate I am with my girlfriends, too. I give good hugs, I rub their shoulders when I catch them doing dishes. I hold their arms and rub their hands when I sense they’re about to cry. I am an affectionate person. Second, our bodies are part of the way we love those we call our friends. Touching as I would my sibling is part of what makes a friendship grow. So I don’t avoid touching B anymore. I’m learning that a kind hand on his shoulder, a playful push, all these say, “I value you in my life, you’re fun, I trust you.” They do not grow lust or illicit sexual desire in me. In fact, they allow me to respect and admire the different ways God made men and women. For to touch B reminds me that we are different, he will always be male and I female. He is other and I love that in him. - Modesty – one question I keep close to me is, “Would I do this if my blood sibling were here, in this room?” Or if you’re married, “Would I say this if my spouse were in this room?” Vacationing together or staying in the same house, everyone sharing the sounds of our son waking up at 2 and 4 am, staying up late all build closeness (can I say ‘intimacy’?) between my husband and I and B and his wife, A. So I will be more comfortable in my pajama pants and tank top, so will A. My husband will wear his undershirt, B will sometimes not wear his shirt. This isn’t a crude or immodest way to dress, but rather the way close friends relax in an embodied, human way. It was also Jesus’ way with those closest to him. Remember how he took off his shirt to wash their feet (John 13:3-5). Recall how Mary undid her hair for the same reason (John 12:1-8). Sensuality, physical beauty and even touch were not highways to sexual liaison, for Jesus, they were part of being fully human. “Jesus opened the door not only to female discipleship but to the possibility of men and women interacting without reference to sex…To Jesus, women were more than sources of impurity, temptresses, wombs, servants, hostesses, or whores.” Carrie Miles as quoted by Dan Brennan
Recently I asked a married couple about their closest friends of the opposite sex besides their spouse. The fifty year old husband said, “You,” to me. I was surprised and grateful. His admission gave me more freedom to pursue friendship with him, knowing he valued me and chose me. I felt wanted and valuable.
This coming home to being wanted is what it means to be a friend with a man or woman. This is the gender peace that Jesus can bring.
Be the first one to pursue a friendship with someone of the opposite sex. Show them that they are seen and valued. Break the ice and discover how men and women together show the world more about God’s image.
Want to talk more about this? There are quite a few topics I couldn’t cover here but would love to dialog about in the comments (page numbers to read up in Brennan’s book follow).
- How do you cultivate the well-being of another person?
- What are some examples or characteristics of a cross-sex friendship from church history? (p 33-47)
- Why should friendship be the model for all marriages and not vice versa? (p 43)
- How can cross-sex friendships be a solution to instead of a cause of divorce?
- What does Jesus’ culture teaches us about another model of the tie between brothers and sisters? (p. 55-57)
- The difference between sexual desire and desire for sex (p. 76)
- How can sexuality mean more not less than we thought (e.g.what is sexual shalom and reverential intimacy)? (p 80-82)
- Why the sacred union of marriage will always be different than the sacred union of cross-sex friendship (p 85-90).
- How cross-sex friendships prove that Jesus was not sexually repressed (107-118).
- How Jesus could be bold and vulnerable with women, embracing his own and their sexuality (119-128).
- What is embodied chastity, what is a positive view of chastity? (129-136).
- How the male focus of avoiding temptation creates a false view of female sexuality.
- How impersonal boundaries are just as sexually chaotic as lust (139).
- How the bikini line is a good test for appropriate physical contact.
- How delight and play factor into all good friendships (153-167).
Any questions? Ask away. Perhaps Dan will even jump in to help us tease this out.
I’ll start with #15. When I was a child I ran, climbed trees and laughed with the kids in the neighbor. We played sports, music, and even role-played church and family life. We tickled, wrestled and even fought with each other. Sounds normal right? It was very normal and I delighted in my friends and family. My church was Roman Catholic and I was loved and hugged by all the priest, nuns and christian brothers who lived life with us and taught us. We were truly a community of lovers. When I went to college, I met my husband the summer before my sophmore year. I never studied freud, freud never showed up at my Roman Catholic parish and I never experienced the concept that “a woman alone with a man by cause him to sin.” How could I do that without that intention. It would be the other way around in my opinion. He could just as well tempt me. Anyway, I do not know how to not delight and “play” with my friends, especially the guy friends even more. You see, all the kids in the neighborhood were boys. There weren’t any other girls that came out to play. Thank GOD I had a brother who was 13 months older or I probably wouldn’t have learned how to play baseball, football, and street hockey. As a middle-aged married woman who has joined the evangelical community, I’m having a hard time making friends. Throughout my life I have noticed that I do not speak girl very well which doesn’t help. I also am much more interested in what the guys are talking about anyway like fishing and hunting.
EstaAnn,
I love your history of play. Brennan’s book taught me how play is done for the sake of sheer pleasure, because we delight in that activity without efficient or productivity clouding the waters. It’s just pure fun… my memories of playing tag remind me of how much I’ve lost as an adult.
I can completely get how your embodied and healthy experience would make it harder for you to make friends. It may help you find tools and strength to keep being yourself by hopping over to http://www.letmebeme.org a blog I co-author on the hope and goodness of female friendship.
That said, I love that you have cultivated good guy friends.
Thank you for sharing!
thank you, thank you, thank you, Jonalyn. This was incredibly convicting to me, especially as I have had opposite-sex friendships in the past where I did not model strength.
These days I feel like you did with B on the ATV situation–almost all the time. It’s sad, because I know the Lord has placed other godly men in my life other than my husband, but I almost always feel as if I’m disrespecting my husband in wanting to pursue deeper friendships with them.
I’m definitely going to read Dan Brennan’s book. Again–thank you!
Clarivel Ann,
I’m thankful this gave you food for thought. Feel free to email me personally and we can chat about this more!
Your husband’s attitude will be key, as will your own record and hunger for more health, more freedom, more true love.
Joyful and hopeful for you!
ahhh, i feel so much lighter after reading this! as a young single woman who grew up with great sisters and an amazing group of female friends that i’ve had for 11 years, i find it so easy to be panicky and weird and nervous around guys. probably didn’t help that my dad is convinced platonic friendships are impossible, and i think hearing that so often made me believe it and act to reflect it. i love your language of respect and delight when describing friendship – thank you!
Justine,
It was my pleasure to write this post.
My father felt the same, it did not help!
I hope you’ll pick up Brennan’s book. He gave me a wonderful older male perspective on this new and better way.
Just a quick comment on Freud from the perspective of a college student who’s recently studied psychology, the department of Psychology at my college as well as most current psychology professionals have dismissed Freud’s theories pretty much entirely. He’s still viewed as the initiator of Psychology, however there has never been evidence to back up his theories. He’s no longer studied and spoon-fed to psychology students. (Or so was my experience/told by my professor.) I found that relieving.
MJC,
I agree, this was the case when I studied Freud almost 15 years ago at UVA. Freud seems to be publicly pronounced as old news and yet in popular and church culture he is still followed, or believed.
Don’t you think most people act as if touch, desire, delight and even pleasure are at core sexual terms?
It is intriguing to me that while Freud’s theories are no longer “valid” within academia, they still hold so much power within religious communities, especially in those communities that denounce his views outright. I have had many opposite sex friendships in my life that were healthy, enjoyable, and lacking the tension caused by the beliefs you pointed out. It was only when someone “educated” me that it was wrong to be alone with a guy that I became nervous. These same people who pointed that out to me, who tried to convince me that all touch is sexual, that I am responsible for my brothers’ stumbling, were the very same that sat beside me in Psychology 101 and mocked Freud for being narrow-minded. And this was during a time even my parents didn’t mind that I drove home from college each weekend with a guy (a 3 hour trip).
I really appreciate your perspective on this, Jonalyn. Sue Edwards and I wrote about this concept in Mixed Ministry: Working Together as Brothers and Sisters in an Oversexed Society, though we tailored it for ministry leaders as the title suggests. We concluded much the same things you did. It IS possible, and ideal, that men and women be friends. The fear of women that many Christian men have been brought up with has severely limited women’s opportunities in ministry. Both sexes miss out on the unique contributions the other could make in their lives. So thanks for addressing this in a refreshing manner!
I love hearing the other women who have worked hard to make this concept of friendship between men and women not just possible but beautiful. Thank you for sharing about your work. Is this a book? available at amazon? Please share more for my readers
as always – insightful and killer commentary
Way to lead
Thank you, Jim. I owe you the chance to have picked up this book in the first place.
Thanks for this, sounds like a worthy book to read. I have had no real friendships with men because I didn`t want to seem like I was being inappropriate – if it was a friends` husband – or to be viewed as flirting, if they were single like me!
I am moving this year and eager to develop new friendships so this article is very timely! I find it particularly difficult if I have any sort of physical attraction to a guy. I am single, so I am interested in a romantic relationship but I would also love just a healthy friendship. I find, if I find a guy remotely handsome, I will want to impress and interest him and lose out on any real connection because I make it romantic from the start. This either entices romance with us OR pushes him away, cause he sees my interest!
Do you have ideas or suggestions on how to balance this, how, as a single person, to seek friendships and not weigh them down with romantic expectations. I am miserably failing in this area and would love to take the pressure off – to create friendships but also not lead men on with my interest.
Coryn,
I hear you, the whole “inappropriate” thing was hard for me to overcome, too.
Great question. I’d recommend trying to distinguish between finding a man physically beautiful and finding a man a mate for you. In other words a man may have a lovely body, a handsome face, but not be someone you’re wanting for yourself. Learn to admire beauty in a man, for instance a guy I’ve just met is staying at this vacation house with my family and two other families. He’s 19 and has a nice body.
He has been wearing cut-off shirts that show his stomach and arms. In conversation last night someone said men should dress modestly. He said, “I guess I shouldn’t wear my cut-off shirts.” I said,
“No, not necessarily, you have a beautiful body but it’s not causing me to stumble.”
Do you see the distinction? Admiring, appreciating, but not engaging in predatory interest or lust.
This happens regularly at art museums, as we watch the Olympics, as we watch high fashion runways. But we don’t have to try to own beauty. Instead we call out beauty as we see it, as something God has made. Dan Brennan has a wonderful quote he gleaned from Dan Allender’s book Intimate Allies, we either “call out order and beauty out of chaos or intensify chaos.”
Choose to cultivate chastity with men and see them as more than “marriage material”. Expect to know them far into your latter years as you both grow, change, marry, have children, perhaps see widowhood or even divorce and still see one another as “friendship material.”
Thank you Jonalyn, that makes a lot of sense to me. That is the truth – their handsomeness definitely does not mean they will be a good match – but I start to put pressure on it because perhaps the physical attraction means something more. Plus, it’s brutal when everyone knows I am single i.e. family, church friends, etc and if I talk to someone remotely appealing I get all kinds of nudges and comments about the man I talk to…makes it difficult to truly engage a person when you know everyone around you is wondering if this might finally be a match for me!! haha! It gets pretty tiresome to only see people in that mode.
I love this way of viewing these friendships, it is incredibly refreshing, I am really interested to try it out.
Jonalyn, Wow! Such an amazing, rich, post. I resonate with with Jim said. Way to lead! I’m quite amazed how you mirrored the spirit and depth of the book in one single post. Yes, you left out a lot of stuff (impossible to touch on everything in one post!) but you so captured the spirit and passion of the book and the way forward for men and women as close friends.
It definitely is awkward for many to work through what it means for a man and woman to be alone together as friends. But the awkwardness disappears as you nurture trust and have the opportunity to begin creating habits.
I so appreciated your embrace of embodied intimacy; you and captured the inner/outer freedom to be able to physically connect with our friend as parallel to sibling physical intimacy.
As you so clearly indicate it takes some time to move through awkwardness. Time is relative here. But when you are able to reach a level of intimate trust where both friends can express a beautiful ease of intentional, meaningful connection through touch like one would a close sibling, it is so beautiful and rich.
Some people are not able to go there for various personal background reasons but if both friends are able to reach a beautiful ease of expressing a correspondence with their bodies the depth the friendship is, it is unbelievably rich, pleasurable, and beautiful for both–and it mirrors Jesus’ relationship with women.
Jonalyn, I don’t understand #14. Can you please elaborate on this?
Bridgette,
Sure thing, Dan Brennan recommends some boundaries guiding men and women when they touch each other. He suggests that the bikini offers some good “no touch” zones. He says that if a man and women touch each other in affection and kindness, these non-bikini covered parts of our body can be appropriate.
So I could touch a close girlfriend and a close guyfriend’s back and still be appropriate, chaste and loving without inciting romance. The same would be true for the entire body except what is covered by a bikini.
Does that help?
I think the super no go places are sort of obvious, right. But, if you took a basic bikini as the boundaries, that would be no hand on shoulder, since the straps go there, right?
This is tricky because I do not think all touch has to be erotic. But, if there is erotic feelings beyond it for the person being touched, there really can be other sensitive spots that are big “trigger” places.
And in reality, this doesn’t mean that the touch itself incited romanced. But, it if there is romance on the mind, the touch (even in a supposed safe zone) can, indeed be received as erotic.
What do you think, Jonalyn?
I don’t know how I never came back and read this post, Jonalyn. ??? But, I did today, and I am glad. yes. Yes. It has inspired me to order Dan’s book, too.
I have struggle (still do a bit, truthfully) with this same thing. I have felt shame over knowing that a married man was attracted to me. I get this. I would be glad to learn more about a healthier way for the Christian body/family!
I hadn’t seen When Harry met Sally for a long time after it came out. I didn’t watch secular movies in the 90′s I guess (ha!). You know why I finally rented it and sat down to see what this story was? I had more than one guy friend tell me that it was confusing and things just were weird. And the explanation was, “You know, like When Harry met Sally” I didn’t know. So, I rented it and watched it. And, I believed it.
Oye.
Reading your stuff makes me realize what a mess I am.
I grew up in a very rigid church and home. In the last few years I’ve been able to shake off a lot of the surface things – I now go to movies, wear pants and makeup, and listen to music. But I’m afraid that the influence goes deeper than just ticking off a list of surface changes. How do I get the junk out of my head? How do I dispel years of bad conditioning? I’m halfway through my life. I don’t want to waste it.
Kelly, you keep reading and growing and living. It is a tough and painful process, but you soon start to feel like a butterfly emerging and then eventually you can fly again. I don’t know you, but I know how deep it goes. I am going to get off this computer and pray for you.
Danielle, thank you so much for praying for me! It is amazing to receive kindness from strangers.
Hi Kelly, I want to let you know that I empathize. I’m going down the long journey of getting rid of all that junk,, too. I wanted to share some things with you that have helped me.
Danielle mentioned reading: an excellent idea. Read as much as you can of many different things. And read works written by non-Christian authors about a variety of topics. I grew up reading Christian authors only, so I had a very narrow view about many things. Take philosophy – for years I only knew a fundamentalist’s view of philosophy (i.e., that it’s bad and to stay away). Then I started reading key pieces of influential thinkers throughout history, including Christian thinkers. It has given me a much more broad perspective.
Second, thought stopping: Whenever negative thoughts enter my head (like guilty feelings, shaming dialogue, etc.), I stop the thought and think critically about it – is it true? Is it logical? 99.9% of the time it’s not. So then I put it out of my mind.
Last, I surround myself with people who encourage me to be independent. Easier said than done, yes. People who encourage me to be independent don’t shame me or make me feel guilty for doing things like going to movies or listening to whatever music I want. If I do something genuinely wrong and hurtful to another, they’ll correct me of course – but they don’t use shaming language. Anyone who tries to coerce me into doing or feeling or thinking a certain way is not someone who wants me to be independent.
I hope this helps. Like Danielle said, it’s a tough and painful process but it’s very much worth it every day.
Thanks, Catherine, for taking the time to reply. I have found one friend who encourages me to be independent. She’s been a real blessing over the last few months.
Kelly,
Both Danielle and Catherine have offered some good advice.
I want to weigh in saying noticing that you have junk in your head is an important first step.
The next step depends on if you want the short or the long way out of those old messages. Most of us can use a guide in learning how to lose the old tapes. My advice is to find a good Christian psychologist. I found one who helped me a lot. She did more than listen, she helped me grow in independence and maturity in my thinking and love for Jesus.
The longer version is to not supplement reading, finding friends who support our uniqueness and personal walk with Jesus (instead of parroting what the community says) with Christian therapy. It is still good, but may take more time.
Some books I highly recommend are
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse
Healing from Spiritual Abuse and Religious Addiction by the Linns
and any activity that makes you feel alive again, painting, reading, dancing, singing, etc.
While I’m not a therapist, I’m happy to offer some spiritual direction in a more private setting. That’s what Soulation’s Ask LIVE! sessions are all about. If you’d like to know more, email me at jonalyn at soulation dot org.
Really appreciate this post. As a single, woman in ministry and a woman who’s grown up with a lot of guy friends due to being a tomboy as a kid, this post was affirming and also gave me SO MUCH wonderful practical advice on how to have honoring relationships with guys that help us both grow on our journey with Jesus.
Seriously, thank you so much for posting this with such honesty, integrity, and thought.
So glad you wrote in, Liz.
In the text, “elicit” is used a few times when I think “illicit” is meant.
That is correct. I tried to fix them, but I think I missed a few!
I wanted to bring in a different perspective, not because I completely disagree, but because surprisingly it wasn’t touched on in your post or in any of the comments.
Two years ago my husband confessed to an affair. As you can imagine it nearly tore our marriage apart. But, through counseling, a lot of tough work, and of course God’s miracles…we are still together today.
Sadly my walls really went up when reading this post. While I see what you’re saying, there are just boundaries that now exist in my marriage to protect my husband from slipping again. And, as a result, I too follow many of those same boundaries, even though I don’t have the same struggle as he does. I have found that it is supportive to him to practice personally what I expect him to do. One of those things is to not be alone with someone from the opposite sex. And, while God has restored trust in our marriage, I don’t believe it’s wrong to expect my husband to avoid temptations by keeping this boundary.
I guess my comment would be that I think each person and what they can handle is vastly different. Despite overcoming struggles and having been forgiven, I think a cross-sex relationship like you describe, is simply too risky for my husband. And I question if it’s necessary, knowing someone’s past, is it really worth it? I’d rather my marriage be safe and preserved than myself or my husband have intimacy with someone of the opposite sex. We have friendships with other couples, and the four of us, or three at time allows for that bonding. But beyond that, the idea of my husband experiencing the type of intimacy you describe would make me uncomfortable, given our past.
Amy,
I’m glad you brought this up. An affair does create new rules for us, at least for a time. I appreciate the way you love your husband by linking yourself to support his recovery.
However, I’m not certain your limitations must be forever. This is because I do think cross-sex friendship is worth it. They are living proof that God is working to redeem the gender war. And any time we love, we put ourselves at risk. The cross comes to mind.
To extend the analogy, girlfriends provide help, love, safety, joy. And even though a lesbian affair might be possible for women who have had same-sex relationships, I would argue that the good of same-sex FRIENDSHIP is worth seeking. It may be slow, but I think it’s a good goal.
I love how you have found opportunities to encourage your husband to interact with women in good, safer (for now) healthy ways.
I hope I can build on what I meant in saying this “However, take time to ask yourself why you are sharing? is it for the sake of loving well? or is it because you want to form a bond over and against your marriage? If the latter then we have left out principle one above, we are not strong, we are not building strength into all our friendships, we are instead pitting this friendship against all others. above in the point “What can I talk about?”
Our motivation for pursuing a cross-sex friendship is KEY. If we are not soul-healthy this will not work.
To my mind a soul-healthy person is one who sees the opposite sex as human subjects not arousing objects. A soul-healthy person interacts with older women and younger women with kindness and interest without any predatory signs. They will not seek the opposite sex for attention or to make them feel sexy or more important than their friends who are talking with people of the same sex. They will not flirt.
Can anyone add more?
Amy,
I can understand immediate reaction to Jonalyn’s post. Betrayal is painful and devastating. It’s encouraging to hear you’ve been seeking to rebuild trust through counseling.
With Jonalyn I concur that an affair changes the dynamics because trust and intimacy have been destroyed. Rebuilding trust and intimacy takes time.
Rebuilding love, intimacy, and mutuality involves a gradual and progressive journey into a corresponding journey of sacred vulnerability. It is a sign that God is at work within marital intimacy.
Ultimately the greatest boundary for marriage is not a list of external rules for avoiding nearness with people who might be temptations although such rules might be helpful during a season of rebuilding. It’s true that such external rules though, ultimately do not provide safety and security against future betrayal(there are plenty of recorded incidences where betrayal has happened in the midst of rule-bound communities).
Nurturing a flourishing, robust fidelity is not an agreement to avoid getting near the opposite sex and practicing sexual acts only within marriage. It is about nurturing a deep intimate friendship within the marriage.
Building that intimacy means a growing commitment to building virtue in that marriage, the skills of friendship and intimacy. These skills involve a commitment to not use the partner as a friendship of pleasure (objectification) or mere usefulness (relationship for utilitarian purposes only).
It means (as Jonalyn referred to in her original post) mutually cultivating the practice of delight in the other. This delight is grounded in a genuine vision of love and not some simplistic strategy to overcome boredom between partners.
The ongoing practice of nurturing delight and intimacy skills in marriage does 2 things simultaneously: 1) it nurtures profound trust and fidelity between partners, and 2) it builds the same relational skills to relate to other members of the opposite sex outside the marriage.
Real intimacy grows not only inside marriage but then becomes the basis for trust and love outside of marriage; the temptation for lust and sexual escape through a chemistry encounter with another outside the marriage becomes something quite ugly.
I loved this post!! Thank you Jonalyn! It is an area that is a focus in my seminary work this quarter and a place of transformation for me.
Great to hear, Kim. Where are you attending seminary?
Northern Seminary partnering with the Transforming Center Ruth Haley Barton Masters Specialization in Spiritual Transformation. A two year experiential spiritual community using her Sacred Rhythms material. Developing a rule of life.
awesome. I’m jealous
Exceptional blog. It is well written, well researched, and speaks to the heart. I have thought these things for years, but thought I was crazy. You have articulated valuable insight. Incidentally I am a 5 0 year old male. I have had a very close female friend for 34 years. We became friends when she was 15 and I was 16. We are still very close to this day. I am thankful to say that I have been married to my wonderful bride for over 28 years.
Thank you, John. I enjoyed clicking over to see our blog and your wife and close friend
Thanks for the time and thought, Jonalyn! By being vulnerable and sharing your experience, you are helping others be more strong.
For years I wouldn’t be friends with other women, actually, after learning by my experience from interaction with my mother to not trust other women with my emotions and thoughts, and a father who although also caring for me the best he knew how was verbally, emotionally, and spiritually abusive as well. Your book Ruby Slippers was a major tool in changing these things by helping me value my femininity and opening windows in my heart that I didn’t know were there and let life and people in. My relationship with God is better and completely changed, also, and I have an even better relationship with my husband who is an amazing person.
I read this blog post nodding my head, because my friendships were usually with guys, and yes, society does judge opposite-sex friendships gossiping and making barely concealed comments about it probably ending in an affair. I experienced this at work when I met a guy who I became close friends with. He eventually got to know my husband and they’re friends as well in ways I am not. It’s interesting to see the ways our relationship with my friend overlap, and where they’re different, due to personality, interests, etc.
Mandy L,
I’m thankful you told me. Grateful for your open journey to us.
you have done a great job of identifying a huge hole in our christian culture and our personal development.
i work every day, side by side, with my friend Kathy Escobar and it has been so healing and affirming that this can be done.
when we started it was “prophesied” that we could not do this, that we would implode.
i think it was motivated because people are so accustomed to one person having more power and it seems that is usually the male.
while we have worked very hard at our friendship, it has stood the test of 8 years and is not only possible, but i think in an ideal world, church, non-profit that men and women sharing equal authority and power is the ideal.
Karl,
You have done a powerful job spackling this void. I’m so thankful for the way you listen and share power in your church, with Kathy and even in the short time we got to talk.
Just watching how your church is run is proof you don’t have to have one lead… in fact, giving away power is the best way to lead others into freedom, growth, wisdom, love. Strange how servanthood actually works… if it’s really servanthood and not control masquerading as “servant leadership”.
Thank you, Karl for leading well.
I’ve read this through 2 or 3 times now. Each time feels like I’m setting a bone; it’s a little painful, pretty uncomfortable, but I know it is bringing healing.
Chase,
That was apt and cool… a very appropriate picture. I felt the same way in reading Brennan’s book.
He says that men and women as peers/ loving friends is the goal of egalitarianism no simply female pastors. AMEN to that!
Thank you for sharing this Jonalyn. I have had this conversation many times with both male and female friends, and firmly believe it is not only possible, but healthy and necessary to have cross-gender friendships whether you’re single or married. This allows that we are all valuable and can contribute to the edification of one another in unique ways.
healthy and necessary! ditto.
Thanks for the article.
Did you mean “illicit” instead of “elicit”?
Steve,
Yes, I did. Thanks for noticing the typo.
Thank you, Jonalyn, for looking for ways to transcend the barriers we put up between ourselves — just as Jesus tried to do. And thank you especially for taking on Freud, whose ideas are overrated and whose influence on our thinking is far too influential. Every relationship, man, woman and child, is sexual in nature? Really?
Eric,
I think you’d enjoy a book I’m reading right now, The End of Sexual Identity. Have you heard of it?
Jonalyn, I was unfortunately unable to attend the Torrey session where you talked about this but I did get to listen to the recording last night. In the spirit of healthy cross-sex interaction, I have to say after listening that you have a beautiful laugh (giggle?). It reminded me of another woman (married with 3 kids) with whom I have a good, and dare I say somewhat candid, relationship.
I deeply appreciate you tackling this topic and presenting it at Biola. I have wrestled with cross-sex friendships a lot and hearing you speak about it was the first time I didn’t feel demonized for it. Thank you.
This article touches on an important point for many, which is how to foster cross gender relationships. I do believe though, that it is inherently wrong and takes the Bible out of context. The type of cross gender relationships that are suggested in this article inevitably promote marital infidelity and insecurity in spouses, and with good reason. You’re playing with fire.
Proverbs 6:27-28
“Can a man carry fire next to his chest and his clothes not be burned? Or can one walk on hot coals and his feet not be scorched?”
This article needs to be rebuked by real Scripture, particularly these two verses in Proverbs. Essentially, this article is encouraging godly Christians to walk the fine line of marital intimacy with people who are not in a spousal relationship. Stop polluting the minds of young people.
Mark
In context the fire is an adulterous woman. I’d appreciate if you’d stop equating all women with adulterous women. How are you to learn to regard your sisters in Christ with chastity?
I’m curious how you treat your biological sisters.
Hi Jonalyn!
I loved this post and I asked my husband to watch your talk at Biola with me.
A few thoughts: We both thought the topic is needed and are thankful for you doing this. The one thing in the talk that caught us off-guard was when you relayed the story of your principal-friend who announced you as his “best friend!” when you walked into his office. While you made it clear in the talk that your spouse is the only person you should entertain shared sexuality with, this seemed to negate that. But maybe it was a nuance and you were just making a point of his joy at your friendship. Maybe I should take it as implied that his wife is his very best friend. Or, is is possible to be best friends with a man-friend, while only entertaining sexuality with your spouse? Does your spouse have to be your best friend?
I mean this with all respect and simply want to know how you would respond to this question, as I plan on sharing the talk with more friends who will have the same question. I hate to come across as nitpicky. I don’t want to let that one comment–especially if we should allow it some nuance–to toss the entire speech.
Second, I love that you made the caveat that these few, deep, cross-sex friendships are for those who are strong enough in their control of their passions. I find that many men cannot watch the movies my husband watches, or take their wives to a lingerie store, because of pornography or its control over their lives. I don’t know what you (and other readers!) think of this, but I am extremely proud of his discipline (before or after we met) over his passions. And it IS a discipline. It’s not like he has no sexual passion. Contrary. It is like a less intense version of you reading 50 Shades (a level he would never go to) and not allowing that to control you. Would reading 50 Shades without sin be equivalent to having a cross-sex friendship without ulterior motives?
Third, I compare the reactions against cross-sex friendships (my dad said it was an extremely dangerous slippery slope) to the reaction against physical touch before marriage. I have friends who had *literally* never touched each other from friendship, to dating, through engagement, til joining hands at the altar. My husband and I grew up somewhat surrounded by the same mindset, and made it 3 of 4 years before our first kiss. By the end of year #3 it just got ridiculous. There is always a slippery slope, but the definition of Jesus making us more human allows for those slopes to be individually tailored to our desires, abilities, discipline, and practicalities. The defining of Christianity as a of a set standard of minute rules, and a reading of the Bible that extrapolates all these for us (“Treat the younger women as sisters, with all purity” = “Don’t touch them or get emotionally close til you have your clothes off in the honeymoon suite”) is crippling. Thanks to you and Dale for your clarity-bringing lifestyle of faith.
Hope,
I do think my friend, B’s, best friend is his wife. Perhaps it would help to consider that “best friend” can have many connotations. I know that B and his wife, A, see both my husband and I as their best friends, together.
Also, at our age it is common to have many best friends.
Another thought to add, however, I do not think it is Biblically mandated or expected that your spouse be your best friend. It is nice when it happens, but it is not promised or guaranteed by our God.
Regarding this question: Would reading 50 Shades without sin be equivalent to having a cross-sex friendship without ulterior motives?
I’d say it is not a one-for-one parallel, since 50 Shades of Gray is much less life-giving and good than cross- sex friendship.
I think God created cross-sex friendships, but God did not create 50 Shades.
That said, I agree with you that it takes self-control, virtue and power under constraint to really enjoy our sexuality. There are many who don’t know how to be friend with ANYone, much less someone of the opposite sex.
I think we can all cultivate the capacity for friendship, however, with men and women, no matter our history with lust or porn. God is about making us new.
This was my favorite sentence in your comment “Jesus making us more human allows for those slopes to be individually tailored to our desires, abilities, discipline, and practicalities.”
Here, here!
I would like to know if a person is married is it better for them to be friends with both the husband and the wife especially if it is a female. I know of a young lady who met someone through conversation both are saved and he invited her to his church. She really does not put herself on any man, but she doesn’t have any close male friends for some odd reason.
Patula,
In my experience, it is very wise to try to be friends with the wife and husband. In the case of this woman who got invited to church, did you mean to say she doesn’t have any female friends?
This is a timely article as I am in the midst of trying to navigate an amazing friendship with a man. He and his wife are dear friends with my husband and I. Our friendship seems uncharted territory as it’s not something I’ve done before and I want to honor both of our respective marriage bonds while nurturing the special connection we share. I have done much online reading and research and yours is the article that resonates most what I want to see happen.
I will also purchase Dan’s book!
Flapping Jaw,
I’m glad you shared your hunger for this guidance into the mostly undiscussed territory of cross- sex friendship. I know Dan’s book will be an invaluable resource!
Jonalyn, I very much love this blogpost. Part of me wonders however, why there seems to be such little great exposition on the complexties of attraction in a cross-sex friendship between singles. There are many hackneyed “how to date your friend” articles, that seem at worst, stupid and contrived, and at best unrealistically bow-tied with ideals.
I do agree that friendships between men and women should be able to thrive without attraction as the cornerstone. I believe it is healthy and necessary to see the opposite sex as more than a potential romantic partner, and to transcend that thinking.
However, along with that seems to be this stigma of falling for a friend. Either there are passive individuals who call out “friendzone” (which to me can really be a cowardly way of justifying bitterness and resentment by indulging in misplaced expectations and passive attitudes.)
And then there are those who seem to almost subtly look down on those who fall for the friend as if what they did was wrong (or their attraction has compromised the whole crux of the friendship.)
The thing is, we are most undeniably human, and so why is it that many people fight attraction like the plague? Granted, being attracted doesn’t mean the friendship will move beyond where it is, but it’s human and it’s in the moment and what can really be done? To repress the attraction seem like an unhealthy way to fan the flames of possible resentment or future heartbreak.
I appreciated Hugo Schwyzer’s blog post “Feelings Aren’t Facts: Living Out Friendship Between Men and Women.” He seemed to address the things I’m mentioning here, but I’m really curious to hear your thoughts on this as well.
I love your writing!
Anonymous,
Thank you.
Good question. I also appreciate Schwyzer’s observations about being attracted to our friends as well.
I think we need to unpack the word “attraction” a little more. Do you mean that you find that person interesting, sensual or romantically attractive?
Or all three?
If all three, then I do believe that facing this attraction (not stuffing or denying it) is vitally important. Otherwise, we end up leaking issues all over the place (cue resentment and passive aggression stage right).
However, attraction or even desire is not justification to have and to hold. It’s not even enough for a friendship. Friendships will, no doubt, include aspects of attraction (for why would you be friends if you’re not attracted in some ways to each other??), but attraction cannot be the all of friendship.
Friends push us in ways that feel totally un-attractive, if you know what I mean.
Let me know if this answers your question.
Thank you for your response, Jonalyn. Yes I primarily was trying to address the issue of a friend being romantically attractive. I agree 100% that attraction cannot and should not be the all of friendship.
I think what I was trying to say was that in conversations that I’ve had with friends of both sexes, the concept of romantic attraction being felt in friendships that began as platonic is sort of treated like a plague of sorts, (like a “how dare you allow your nature or wants to come forth?!” type of attitude.)
Granted no one says it like that, but that attitude seems to be implied a great deal. But I’m glad we agree on the accepting of one’s feelings even if they are not to even be fulfilled according to the expectations one may or may not have. I feel like it is this acceptance that allows these feelings to either be discussed between the parties involved or moved on from.
Quick question though, what do you mean that attraction is not justification to have and to hold? Are you saying that attraction is not to be the cornerstone of a commitment? In which case I would wholeheartedly agree.
Thank you for the time you give responding to all the people who comment.
Anonymous,
Yes, I agree that attraction can feel like a plague when people make friendship the opposite of attraction. As if platonic friendships mean sexless friendships. It so does not.
Friendships don’t even work unless you allow your desires to come forth.
And, in reality, all friendships (lovers and platonic) involve sexual beings so they must include an element of noticing, appreciating, loving, caring for each other’s bodies. The degree and type of physical caring and touching depend on the relationship.
However, it is impossible to not notice the sexual dimension of a human being. To erase or ignore the maleness or femaleness of a friend is to make them less than human.
Recently, Dan Brennan gave me this quote that illustrates what I mean from Catholic feminist Diana Cates in her book on friendship: “Choosing to Feel”
“Intimate character-friends not only respect each other’s goodness and experience a kind of “intellectual pleasure” in the sharing of conversation and other activities. They also long for each other’s company. They are physically and emotionally stirred and delight by each other’s embodied presence…
Friends can and do choose, for example, to engage in activities that bring them sheer delight in each other’s embodied presence. They can and do choose to take up new activities with each other when the fire in their relationship begins to smolder. They can and do choose to cultivate ways of perceiving each other that highlight each other’s most attractive intellectual, emotional, and physical qualities. True enough, character-friends are attracted to each other chiefly on the basis of each other’s character, but it cannot be denied that a person’s character often finds partial expression in things like her physical appearance and her level of physical fitness. Friends can and do choose, to some extent, to attend in their passionate perceptions to those physical expressions that bespeak what they take to be each other’s most lovable qualities of character. They can and do choose, to some extent, to regard tenderly those expressions that bespeak each other’s deepest vulnerabilities and weaknesses.” Diana Cates,
That said, not all our attractions are meant to be discussed. I know I cannot share all the ways a guy friend is attractive to me.
But I do admit it, to myself, to God, often to my husband.
To answer your question, I meant attraction to a person does not mean you get to hold their body, touch their lips with yours, “have and hold” as in the wedding vow lingo. And I meant that it wasn’t enough to build an entire friendship. So I think you understood me.
Loved your dialog in this.