One evening on a Carnival Cruise my husband and I watched the evening show. The final dance was a spoof of the YMCA group which began with two male dancers stripping down to nothing but their skivvies. I watched more curious than lustful. There was not camouflaging or support happening as they hopped all over the stage. I found it biologically more amusing than tantalizing.
Turned on
But don’t misunderstand me for being so virtuous, it’s not because naked men just don’t do it for me. When I’ve stumbled upon completely naked men in magazines (I distinctly remember finding one in a European fashion magazine in my London trip abroad) I found myself both aroused and fascinated that THAT was what a penis looked like. It wasn’t easy to turn the page.
I’ve also heard the opposite from those “cigar-filled rooms of men” about how valuable non-sheer lingerie is. Why? “leaves more to the imagination.” So I think the desire for fully naked or partially naked men (or women) is quite personal.
In a study by Queen’s professor and female sexologist, Meredith Chivers, we get a secular look into what turns men and women on. Chivers measures male and female arousal both objectively (through measuring blood flow to significant sexual organs) and subjectively (volunteering arousal by typing in). She monitored them as they watch videos of gay and straight humans and monkeys having sex. She found that men were turned on by their preferred orientation (so heterosexual men by heterosexual sex) and by lesbian sex. But men were not turned on by their non-preferred orientation (so gay men were not aroused by heterosexual sex). However, women were aroused no matter what human sexual coupling occurred, women with women, women with men and men with men. Neither men or women were aroused by the monkey’s sex. Women, Chivers argues, can be aroused by more diverse stimuli then men.
So does this mean all women are really potential lesbians? Not necessarily. As Marta Meana, professor of psychology at Nevada University explained, “The female body looks the same whether aroused or not. The male, without an erection, is announcing a lack of arousal. The fem
ale body always holds the promise, the suggestion of sex.” This suggestion sends a charge through both sexes.
A beautiful woman appeals to women as well, her body reminds women that we can be desirable, appealing to our narcissism.So putting a lovely woman on a billboard appeals to both sexes, not just those “red-blooded males.”
In various studies, it appears that when it comes to arousal, women are turned on when they feel desireable. There is a power that flows through women if they feel desired. When viewing pornography men spend most their time looking at the woman’s body, while women look equally at the man and woman. Take a moment and see how you respond to this picture of a couple kissing. Notice how the camera captures more of the woman’s experience of feeling desired than the man’s.
On a more somber note, this longing to be pursued hosts even darker, dangerous desires. According to the Journal of Sex Research, 1 in 10 women have reported fantasizing about sexual assault at least once a month in a pleasurable way. Why? The heat of being wanted so deeply eclipses the man’s violation of her body that women think this might be enjoyable. The irony is that these women are controlling a fantasy of losing control. Of course in their minds the rape is pleasurable, or rape on their terms and nothing like the actual encounter of a man raping them.
Women, it appears, must face this tendency we have, this affair with self-love, perhaps more than men. We want to be THAT sought after. More on the problems of this to come.
Interesting, how important feeling desired is to women. On a more hopeful note, if a man
loves and desires a woman, communicating that to her, he can turn her on. I would also argue that when a woman desires a man, he is also aroused. Love is a skill men (and women) can acquire, with God’s help, even he doesn’t have guns like Brad Pitt and even if she doesn’t have a figure like Angelina Jolie.
For more on a secular picture of what turns women on, read Daniel Bergner’s full article in The New York Times Magazine, “What Women Want.” If you find the article worthy of more discussion, send me a comment.
Overall, I found Bergner’s article interesting, helpful in pointing out the distinction between bodily arousal (happens to women even in rape) and consent, but he failed to note the difference between arousal and healthy, mutually satisfying sex, a question to which I will turn near the end of this post.
Women’s Lust- Is it Different?
A girlfriend once told me that the way girls lust is different from guys. Girls want to get the guys attention, while guys just want the girl. Women are more often thought of as trophies or possessions or accessories, but perhaps this is what they want (in a fallen way).
I recently watched Twilight, a poor adaptation of the book as my high school friend informs me, but nonetheless a monstrously big hit among teens. The male lead, E
dward, a mysterious, somewhat obsessive, hotty vampire wants to possess the female lead, Bella. No one finds this strange. In fact the idea that he craves her blood is sort of sexy, right?
I personally find that gross, but I think most romantically inclined women (a pack I once ran with) find the obsessive desire of a man tremulously irresistible. A man who literally craves you is a man who will always turn you on, hence Edward, actor Michael Welch’s, breathtaking rise to notoriety. For more on Twilight see “When Perfection is Un-Human“.
But do men also get turned on if a woman desires them to the same degree? What if Bella had wanted to suck Edward’s blood, if Jane Eyre had wanted to possess Mr. Rochester, if Anne of Green Gables had wanted to own Gilbert Blythe? Somehow this isn’t what I think most men find alluring.
I defined lust in my previous post as desiring sex for someone not your spouse. Whenever we think of lust we tend to think only in sexual terms, much like Jesus focused in on adultery “in our hearts” (Matthew 5:27-29). But lust has a few deeper dimensions.
In this post I want to push out into the margins of the meaning of lust among different people, to know how lust grows and why we don’t easily recognize it in women.
Lust and Coveting
Last night, my husband, Dale and I were driving home from a day in Denver when he came up with a new angle on the 10 Commandments. These laws are all linked to the consequences of covetousness, to wanting something that doesn’t belong to us. They each spring from a firm doubt in God’s ability to get us what we need.
We steal because we covet our neighbors stuff, we worship other gods because we covet other gods’ blessings, we lie because we covet a better reputation or the easy road over the truth. We commit adultery because we covet our neighbor’s husband.
There is, in fact, is no command about lust, only about adultery and covetousness. Exodus 20:17, “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
Two definitions from the New American Heritage Dictionary:
Covet – to feel blameworthy desire for that which is another’s, to wish for extensively and longingly (from the Latin cupiditas, desirous)
Lust – intense or unrestrained sexual craving, an overwhelming desire or craving, an
obsessive desire.
With these definitions, lust appears to be only a slice, the sexual slice, of the covetousness pie. And while some, my father being one, have found it difficult to imagine a woman burning with lust, isn’t it easy to imagine a woman struggling with covetousness? Just glance at a picture of the ladies in Sex and the City to realize how much we crave. Just one word: shoes.
So do women covet sex, too?
Covetousness with Lustful Tinges
Kelis’ song, “Milkshake” helps me understand how a woman’s coveting of power and attention might be another form of lust. In “Milkshake” Kelis proves that she’s got the biggest and best bag of sexual favors. If you haven’t heard the song borrow a young woman’s iPod. I find it tantalizing, clever and debauched. Here are a few choice morsels.
My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard,
And they’re like
It’s better than yours,
Damn right it’s better than yours,
I can teach you,
But I have to charge
I know you want it,
The thing that makes me,
What the guys go crazy for.
They lose their minds,
I can see you’re on it,
You want me to teach thee
Techniques that freaks these boys,
It can’t be bought,
Just know, thieves get caught,
Watch if your smart,
My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard,
And they’re like
It’s better than yours,
Damn right it’s better than yours,
I can teach you,
But I have to charge
My aside, the song is catchy, but then embedded in the chorus you come to this verse:
Oh, once you get involved,
Everyone will look this way-so,
You must maintain your charm,
Same time maintain your halo,
Just get the perfect blend,
Plus what you have within,
Then next his eyes are squint,
Then he’s picked up your scent,
So Kelis is still stuck doing the mincing femininity steps without missing a beat in her striptease, trying to keep her halo and still dole out some milkshakes. Kelis is a woman who honestly finds her stilettos liberating! She wants power, attention, but ultimately, she wants to rank higher than other women when it comes to getting a man to her backyard. She wants to be the most desirable. But perhaps this is because being desired turns her on.
Her new song, “Bossy” reveals even more. She reminds us that SHE’S the one who brings all the boys to the yard, she’s the one whose tattooed on his arm, so she has a right to be BOSSY!
But nearly every scene in the music video has a woman giving up her comfort, her dignity, her cleanliness, her sobriety, her freedom for a guy’s sexual pleasure. Kelis says this is the price for the chance to be bossy.
The cover (at right) feels ironic to me. How can a woman in THAT shoe really dominate a man? And yet, women do dominate men wearing shoes like that one.
I’ve noticed that women who want to dominate men like this, get dominated by the system they’ve created. Men who want a woman like Kelis aren’t particularly concerned with treating her as an image bearer of God. And women who want to boss their men aren’t as concerned with sex as they are with power.
And yet both are forms of coveting. The woman covets the power. The man covets the woman’s body. You could even argue as many Christians (often men) do that most women’s lust is a disguised desire to be loved. And if they cannot love, then they’ll just dominate. It’s Genesis 3:16 all over again (as Kelis’ album cover seems to indicate–by the way what’s with the heart dotting her “i”?).
Then they’ll argue that men lust simply because of all that testosterone. Lust is even expected from men. Kelis fits this diagnosis, she wants to be possessed, she wants a guy, sure, but for the money, for the boss-factor, for the power, maybe for the security. So maybe deep down she’s looking for love?
But I’m still not convinced that all female lust is just coveting love or power. The lust I’ve experienced and I know others have too (check out the comments from the last post) is about sexually wanting a man, in bed, with you, right now. I appreciated Deborah’s comments (last post) about how often female lust awakens later than men’s and how our lust, while still visual, can also contain other components, like a rich fantasy life, a desire for what the man represents or a fatherly figure we missed.
On that note, it’s easy for women (and I’d argue men) to have one night’s stands because we can superimpose our imaginings onto the man we’ve chosen. For instance, if a woman met a men who reminded her of James Bond (Daniel Craig, of course) and slept with him that night, she could more easily imagine him strong, capable, witty, dangerous and intelligent simply because she knows LESS about who he really is. I find it much more difficult to fantasize that my husband is James Bond simply because I know who Dale is. I know he is the man who did the dishes the night before and who will probably forget to clear his desk of clutter the next day. I know we’ll both tackle some new problem tomorrow and I know he is much more to me than James Bond.
I’d imagine that the anonymity of a one night’s stand, or a chance encounter with an old romance, or an affair, leaves enough missing pieces for women to project the type of man we crave, not who we really have sleeping next to us.
So, in light of the many raised eyebrows I continue to receive from bringing up this topic of women and lust, let’s venture a bit into why are so many lusty women silent? Why don’t they talk about lust as much as men?
Different Consequences for Lust
When a woman lusts for a man and makes good on her desire, sleeps with him and goes home, she has a different physical experience to process than a man. I’m not saying a man is not harmed by flagrant sexual affairs, nor that the emotional and spiritual significance of hooking up only hurts women. However, women have more to face on the sexual disease front, the pregnancy front (the pill and condoms are not 100% effective), the infertility front and the hormonal front than a man. Even the most natural sexual act (sans condom) puts something inside a woman that could impregnate, disease or sterilize her, whereas the man is not automatically taking anything into his body.
Since a woman puts up more capital when she acts out on her lust, perhaps she learns to mute or is taught to silence her lust early on. More to lose, so it’s just not worth it. Also, in our culture lust is a male thing, something several commenters noted in the previous post. Lust proves a man’s virility, his “red-blooded-ness”, so if you’re a lustful women, you’re basically more manly… Too much testosterone perhaps? And who wants to be a manly woman? Not too many girls grow up with that goal. No wonder we silence the lust inside us.
A helpful article diagnosing the church’s tendency to overemphasize lust as a male problem was written in the journal “Mutuality” (Spring 2009), by Naomi Eden. “Sin Does Not Discriminate” talks about the “gendering” of certain sins in church culture so that women are believed to be less sexually motivated. So women are to dress modestly to keep men from lusting (modesty isn’t something men have to think about), but women’s own lust, sexual addiction and pornography go unaddressed. Eden asks people in the church, “Please do not act surprised if a woman is or has struggled with sexual sin in the form of pornography or extramarital affairs. This woman needs to hear that she can be renewed.”
Healthy Sexuality
In the last post’s comments Tasha asked about healthy sexuality. Given that lust is one of the ways we covet another person’s sexual attention, healthy sexuality must strip itself of covetousness. Healthy sexuality must include a knowledge both of self and a desire to know the other. Healthy sexuality will by its nature make me very vulnerable to receiving all of my husband and giving all of myself in return. This is a lesson Dale has taught me time and again.
Dale and I notice that good lovemaking invites us to avoid these two extremes: subjugation on one hand and selfishness on the other. The extreme of utter subjugation may happen with either sexual partner. If the woman is completely bent on giving herself in bed while ignoring her desires as irrelevant, she’s missed the necessary element of self-love. For instance, when a wife approaches sex with the attitude, “I’ll do whatever pleases you and never share my sexual hopes”; or when a husband works to steer clear of the aggressive, animal stereotype of his tribe by overcompensating to make sex all about her. This posture robs the lovers of satisfying each other because they stop thinking of themselves as worthy of being satisfied. Without communicating what she loves her husband to do, to say, to express sexually, she is not giving her full self to him (perhaps this is because she does not sexually know herself, but that is another issue all together). Love, ultimately, is a giving of oneself away, not by negating the self but by exposing the self and all of its passions. Letting a man practice out his sexual hopes on your body without communicating your desires is not full love. If a woman’s sexual desires remain locked, or worse dead, in marriage then this woman is not loving her mate.
The other extreme is an attitude that is more stereotypically male, though from The New York Times Magazine article (i.e. women’s narcissim and self-love) that women have a deep urging to say, as well, “I want THIS, sexually, in marriage so I will require this out of my mate.” This demanding posture refuses to listen, either patiently or repeatedly, to the instruction, hope and differences of her spouse because her satisfaction is not mutual by one-sided. Demanding one type of sexual encounter without inquiring, as a scholar, into the body and mind’s delights of our spouse means we fail to know and therefore to love our mate.
Interestingly, this is how God loves the world. He sacrifices, but so that his own desires will also be fulfilled. In laying down his life in Jesus, he lets us know he’s doing it, not only for our sakes, but for his. He wants the world to be reconciled to himself. We may be confused because of our church clichés and mistakenly think that true love is self-effacing, deny self and all that. But true love desires the best for ourselves too, especially in cooperation with another. This is the dance of the Trinity.
Tasha went on to ask, “Is it possible for a spouse to lust after a marriage partner by simply seeing the other as a means to their own end/happiness?”
Given that lust is a type of covetousness, I would say that whenever a husband or wife uses the other solely as a means to achieve personal gratification (either through demanding or hiding one’s own desires), then love is missing in their relationship. I would not, however, call this
lust. I would call it covetousness, a craving for something other than the body and soul of another person. So, as I pointed out in the last post, when a woman seeks sex only for the sperm in her husband’s body because she craves a baby so deeply, then this woman is coveting her husband’s sperm and not enjoying what she does own, namely his body.
Upon reflection and further research, I think a better word for this phenomena would be “baby covetousness” not baby lust.
Whenever I desire Dale sexually, even if it’s to fulfill a deep sexual craving in me, I am not lusting. Why? because his body formally belongs to me. Paul says it nicely, “The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.” I Cor 7:4.
Before marriage, his body belongs to him. After marriage, we swap ownership rights to our bodies. I do not believe I can lust for something I know naturally, honorably and properly own.
Vanquishing Lust
In chatting with married women after posting my first blog about lust, I asked some, “Can you husband’s body turn you on, simply by looking at it?” Every one answered, “Yes.”
In fantasizing about a man not our husband women, like men, are tempted to imagine that another body is turning us on, too. Women, like men, must respect the role our eyes play in slipping us down the road of coveting our neighbor’s husband.
Here’s an idea of what we can do about coveting a man’s body, attention, power for ourselves.
A few months back I was lunching with a friend at a local restaurant. We were deep in conversation when I became vaguely aware of a marginally attractive man walk in with a woman and an elderly man and sit across from me. Without missing a beat in my conversation, I glanced up and took him in. He wasn’t as attractive (to me) as Dale, of that I could tell immediately. However, he seemed focused and clean and kind–all lovely qualities. And I was drawn t
o that.
Instead of being able to merely admire, I caught myself (minutes later) trying to catch his eye. In between my sentences with my friend I was stealing glances, lingering my eyes longer than I needed. Then, right dab smack in the middle of a sentence, my awareness kicked in. I became conscious of what I was doing.
I was lusting after that guy. I wanted him to notice me, and I wanted to let our eyes rest into each other and I wanted to distract him and I wanted to check him out a lot more. Why? well it wasn’t to tell him about Jesus.
Typically in situations like these, my first response is some serious reining in and self-talk. Something like, “Jonalyn, that’s wrong. God doesn’t want you to think of him like that, stop it right now.” You know the ol’ accountability line.
But, since I’ve been reading Letters by a Modern Mystic which has been teaching me to invite Jesus into everything, I steered around my blamey self talk and prayed instead, “Jesus, I invite you into my lust.”
And I went back to my conversation with my friend.
Then, in a flash, something changed, not about the man (he was still tempting to look at), but about my eyes. I felt like light had cracked open in the restaurant and I was seeing things clearly.
A lull in our conversation gave me a chance to lift my head and really look at that man across the restaurant. He was sitting with a man, perhaps his father, and a woman, presumably his wife. I felt his presence as a son, a brother, a father, a husband. The last one completely changed me.
I do not struggle with lusting after my family members, nor those who I clearly see in familial roles to me. I see them as friends, members of my family and therefore easily respect them. In that moment, after uttering a prayer, Jesus came into my lust and reformed my eyes to see the man as a human, made in God’s image.
My desire for him as an object to possess melted and I saw him as someone worthy of my respect. I know I could have bumped into him later and not been afraid to look at him.
Often, accountability guidelines for ending lust focus on guarding our eyes from even looking or noticing beauty. But this feels Gnostic to me, a method of denying the inherit beauty in healthy men (and women’s) bodies. I want to be free to notice beautiful men and I want Dale free to notice beautiful women. This allows me to thank God for his creativity.
Once I grabbed Dale’s arm and pointed at a nondescript guys’ amazing legs, “Oh my goodness, see that man’s calves? They were HUGE!” And he’ll notice and we’ll talk about how men with calves like that would have been chosen to be the leaders in of Scottish clans and how so many men do not have calves like that and how gladiators would have HAD to had big calves just like that guy’s. It’s actually pretty fun.
We’ll do the same if a woman with gorgeous legs walks by. Neither Dale nor I have stunning gams, but we love noticing others who do. And in the process, my lust isn’t incited. I’m observing the art of God around me and sharing it with my husband. God called us very good. I’d have to agree.
If we find our admiration turning into covetousness, I’d recommend this relational approach of inviting Jesus into the moment. Asking for Jesus to abide in us reminds me of Jesus’ words, “Watch and pray so that you will not enter into temptation.” Matthew 26:41
No matter where you struggle with lust, invite Jesus to abide in you. Jesus is stronger than I’ve been or any other method I’ve tried.





Jonalyn,
Love this post. I like the "covet" language more than "lust" because it applies much more to relationships. I kept thinking about how women (including myself) can often covet men even when sex is nowhere near the relationship. Women do covet attention from men. I see it played out in business, ministry, friendships, and dating relationships. Thanks for your words and exhortation.
Anna
P.S. Please post more often.
Thanks for the thoughts here. Thorough look at the topic, for sure.
You might like these podcast interviews we did a while back with some women who have struggled with porn addiction. They say some very interesting things about how it is a growing problem in our culture.
http://www.covenanteyes.com/blog/2009/08/17/podcast-porn-addiction-among-women-part-1/
Luke,
Good podcast. Thanks for the link.
I appreciated how the women confessed to feeling convinced they were the only women in the world who struggled with porn. They thought porn was only created for men. They both feared that since they were attracted to porn that they were lesbians.
Finding out they were not alone allowed them to begin to break free.
I recommend you read and check up their websites.
Jonalyn,
What a wonderful follow-up! I've wondered, really ever since a period of intense lust struggles that I went through, about how much of women's lust (and/or men's) is a lust for the power to captivate another (or simply power). I was so interested to read the study you brought up, although I've not yet read the NYT article. Random comments women made back in college had me wondering how normative it is among hetero women to be turned on by very attractive women (not necessarily as to lust after them but to have their lusts aroused) and why… or if it was due to the blurring of gender desires in culture. I did not know there was a study. This is also helpful for those who are a little confused by this and wondering if they have some bi- leanings.
And thanks for appreciating my little comment (although it is no longer the last comment in that thread, more like 2/3 of the way through the comments) about the complexity of our lust. I completely agree that holding onto a roll in the sheets to meet those various ideas and needs is much easier to conceive than the multi-faceted real relationship provides and that this has something to do with the temptation to have affairs.
I also love what you have to say about knowing and being aware of yourself and its desires and conveying that "nakedly" as being part of the true giving of oneself (the truest loving of the other). I've marveled before at how much some husbands I know miss out on through their selfish sex–how much more fulfilled they would actually be on every level if they didn't simply use and take (I do know some women who cried through their honeymoons w/ little to no improvement years later). And the idea that this is actually a good lot for women to submit to is twisted (apart from the whole complementarian/egal debate).
As usual, much to chew, and your vulnerability is appreciated.
Thanks,
Deb
Thank you, Deb. Next month I’m speaking at a men’s conference with my husband and I would love to bring out some of these examples you referenced.
My favorite point you made: men don’t realize how much they’re missing by not giving nakedly in body and soul and receiving both from their wife.
Jonalyn,
I appreciated this post very much. Thanks for writing it!
It's very timely too, as I just took part in a discussion on Christianity Today's blog "Gifted for leadership". The post, "what not to wear" was encouraging women in leadership to dress modestly.
These two paragraphs sum up how we ought to see each other.
I do not struggle with lusting after my family members, nor those who I clearly see in familial roles to me. I see them as friends, members of my family and therefore easily respect them. In that moment, after uttering a prayer, Jesus came into my lust and reformed my eyes to see the man as a human, made in God's image.
My desire for him as an object to possess melted and I saw him as someone worthy of my respect. I know I could have bumped into him later and not been afraid to look at him.
If church is a family, then we should see each other as family members, not as bodies to lust after and that need to be covered head to toe.
Thanks for sharing about inviting Jesus into the equation. YOu're so right! If we see people through his eyes, the way only He can enable us to, then we stop seeing them as objects and see them as the image bearers of God that they are!
There was even talk of not allowing good looking women (worldly standards) from preaching from the pulpit because men would be distracted and not concentrate on the message. But what about us poor women who have to struggle with our natural attraction to that gorgeous pastor? (hubby is a very good looking pastor
)
great final point, Madame! =)
Thanks also for explaining a bit about what arouses men and women. I've always found it interesting how I'm definitely attracted to men, but I find a scantly-clad, attractive woman's body more beautiful than an attractive man's scantly-clad body. Even with my husband, good looking as he is, I find him more attractive when he's got clothes on!
I've also found that the way a man treats me can be arousing. A man who is kind, gentle, respectful, gives me his full attention, etc.. can awaken involuntary feelings in me, like a bond.
Also, a man who treats me kindly and touches me (not sexually) can immediately cause a reaction of arousal.
I really don't know what the solution is, if any. LIke you, I find that I don't react similarly to people I know well.
I don't like rules and prohibitions, like not getting in a car alone with a male who isn't my husband, or not meeting a man on my own. Life happens, and we find ourselves in situations where we need to choose whether we will entertain the thoughts or feelings, or whether we will give them to Jesus. Jesus spent time with women, he just saw them for who they were and didn't lust after their bodies.
Thanks for a refreshing approach to lust, what causes it, and what we can do about it.
yes on all madame praised and what she added….
oh, that was me (deborah). i think i forgot to sign off on my last post.
This comment taken from an email response I received from this post from Dr. Jerry Root and pasted here with his permission. I think you'll find his distinctions between lust and sexual desire particularly helpful!
Good article. I do think–as in everything–there is more yet to be explored. We get sure words at times but never last words. Your words are definitely sure (and helpful). I do think, also, there is a profound distinction that must be made in our definitions between lust and sexual desire.
Lust is predatory; sexual desire is normative. Sexual desire among many of the college students I work with is confused with lust and it makes me sad when I see college students beating themselves up for being normal. I do believe, in the Church, much of the confusion grows out of and embedded [no pun intended] in Gnosticism; and from the world's intrusive Materialism.
Your story about trying to catch the eye of the good-looking guy in the restaurant was spot on. It was an attempt to see where it might go if he perceived your interest. Thus it was a predatory act.
My guess is you had no end in mind for sexual gratification, but if you lusted after the attention and you threw him a come-on look to see if he was interested. You were still using him for self gratification.
To invite Jesus into that moment and discover the man's humanity in the process is the right way to go. I was very impressed and helped by the image of bringing Christ into the situation.
Lust is definitely self-referential and utilitarian. It denies the humanity of another. The Incarnate Christ who took on humanity will always, properly, humanize. Perhaps this idea could be extended.
I appreciated the insights and am grateful to you for the article.
There are other areas to consider relative to the place visuals play in the realms of beauty and arousal. For example the Bible itself supplies plenty of imaginative visuals. Men are told to enjoy the breasts of the wife of their youth. Its hard to read that and not think about breasts. The multiple passages about circumcision cannot be read without thinking of a penis. Solomon 4 will not allow one to escape without imagining two people love-making. And the passages of Er and Onan ejaculating their "seed" on the ground to deny Tamar any offspring provide plenty for imaginative visuals. Let alone Judah, Jesus Great, great, great… grandfather sleeping with Tamar to produce the lineage of Christ.
–Jerry
Fascinating comment by Dr. Roots, although I wonder how the "predatory" distinction applies to lust/desire not enacted w/in relationship (however distant)–i.e., fantasy life involving both real and unreal characters. With the real ones, it could be said they are being used, but with the others…. I doubt all such desire dwelt on or even most is spiritually healthy, although we will surely have desires. Perhaps the key is the "self-referential" and "utilitarian." But then on the other hand, at least fleeting glimpses of "self-referential" are probably just part of the package of even rather well-trained sexual desire, maybe especially when not in relationship w/ ann other to focus upon? For we are learning others/ conceiving of others via ourselves as our bodies sexually mature. Just thoughts and questions.
I would have to say that Daniel Craig is the best James Bond of all times.:–
I thought this was awesome. I am at CO LT right now and you and your husband just spoke about gender myths and I decided to read this as you mentioned it in your talk. I think it is so important to note that not only is lust viewed as a man’s issue but women are ofter discouraged from talking about it. I know even here we have “workshops” we go to in-order to grow closer to God and possibly help with things we struggle with.
There was a workshop entilted “fleeing from lust” that I was super interested in as lust and pornography is something I do struggle with. Next to the title said “men only” which makes sense. This topic would be uncomfortable in a co-gender setting. I looked down expecting a section for women to be offered but of course non were.
It was very disappointing. Not just in that they were enforcing the stereotype that lust is a “male problem” but that there was no opportunity for women to step up and get the help they need as well. Thank you for being brave enough to have this post and be open.
Samantha,
Your courage and your willingness to find the grace to grow build me up.
I agree more classes covering men and women’s lust need to include both sexes. Personally, I think if we heard each other’s struggles we’d find it more natural to humanize the opposite sex, instead of preying on them!
i think that Daniel Craig is only second to Pierce Brosnan when playing the role of James Bond*”‘
Taylor, if you left Brosnan out, I quite agree. =)
Daniel Craig is bigger and better than Sean Connery. i like him as the new james bond-.-
actually i dream to have a Carnival Cruise in the next few years, i am still trying to earn more money to afford it..’
My eyes have been opened to the truth of female sexuality and desire by reading these articles. Growing up in a conservative family as well as a very traditional church I was taught to believe that men are more sexual than women and the only ones who struggle with sexual addictions. I thought being a healthy woman meant you were free from sexual desire and the rightful place if a woman was to fulfill her husbands urges and maybe receive some pleasure in return. I am so happy I came across this article now (I am a senior in high school) instead of in college or worse after being married with such unhealthy expectIons of my femininity or lack-there of.
The timing in my life has been perfect for me as I am in the beginning if a relationship with an amazing guy who treats me with loving kindness, is respectful, sincere, maturing in Christ … And I find him sexually attractive? He question mark is there because I struggle with if my newfound sex drive is appropriate or as you put “normal” I can not talk to my mom about this for fear of her over reactive and enforcing some strict guidelines on me like she has on my brothers. She is super paranoid about pornography and has the house Internet on lock down. Even this shows how well the prince of lies has infiltrated the church system in order to keep women enslaved secretly by he shame of their sin. It’s confusing for me though because I am so excited that I actually posses these desires which at one point in my life due to struggling with an eating disorder I thought I would never be able to enjoy sexual interaction of any form. Now I know someone who can make me feel all bubbly just by looking at me the right way. I now know just because I desire him does not mean I am lusting after him. Though with a heavy heart I admit my mind has led me a stray on mire than one occasion. Usually when I feel alone or saddened do I catch myself more likely to lust after his mere presence. This scares me and makes me feel ashamed for the way I have mentally violated the beautiful body God gave him that is not mine. How can I keep my mind pure Ina romantic relationship while not forsaking the natural sex drive I am excited to discover I have but am no where near ready to use in a way that will be hethy and whole to
(continued from above) health for me and
my future husband.
I am so happy you brought up the twilight series because I have taken the not so popular stand against it. Like most girls my age I was originally consumed by each book and the trilling story line of forbidden love. I remember my interest waning with each new book as there became more and more obviously sexual. Bella the heroine of the novels is torn between the amazingly gorgeous vampire Edward and the werewolf Jacob who is just simply hot. Until she marries the vampire I. The fourth book she floats between both guys with very sudductive behavior. She most definitely uses her sexuality to posses these love-struck guys. Two inncedwnces made me swear off twilight for good because it was unhealthy for me and my mind set. The fistt was he heated sex scene that is implied and almost revealed in the final book. Am I the only one who found the fact that vampires have sex all night every night since they have no need for sleep. Edwards brother and his wife take pride in having gone through two houses. If that doesn’t leave ones mind to erotic, aggressive, and excessive sex then I don’t know what does. And Bella as the book reveals only wants to have sex to feel the pleasure of sex as a human before she become a vampire. Not unlike many relationships today. The second experience that led me to the decision to never watch these movies or read the books again was the third movie eclipse. I remember going to see it with two girl friends and feeling so uncofortable watching sexy guys grace the scenes shirtless and multiple makeout scenes with Bella and her two lovers. I was ashamed of getting turned on that way by a movie and wished I had just walked out. Even now when people ask why I don’t support twilight I shy away from the truth and will say it’s lame but honestly I know the power it could have over me if I let it and I will not. I only want a man I know and I can love for more than just his body to ever make me feel that way. Now I understand the power of my own eyes, in a way I was shocked to discover. I wasn’t supposed to have a sex drive but I am human and guess what I do.
Anonymous,
I’m so glad God’s re-awakened his gift of sexual desire in you. That full of wonder. It reminds me of the captivating way Solomon writes, ” The way of an eagle in the sky,The way of a serpent on a rock,The way of a ship in the middle of the sea,And the way of a man with a maid.” Prov 30:19.
Purity of mind and heart really begins with honesty. I think you’re well on your way to discovering that God is not disgusted or shocked with our sexual desires.
When you feel overwhelmed with temptation to begin imagining sex with your boyfriend you might want to consider inviting Jesus into that moment. Ask him to help you know him as a person whose body does not (yet?) belong to you.
After marriage I believe Paul was correct to instruct us that we own each other’s bodies, in a sexual way we give our body to the other, an act lived out every time we make love. See 1 Cor 7:4
Good points about Twilight… though I do think the movies/books work differently on each woman and man, I’m glad you had the courage to take the first step and admit it does turn you on in a way you don’t think God loves here.
All humans have sexual drives, it’s part of the wonder of being able to love in body and soul.
I’m grateful you’ve shared! In high school I swore off any romantic movies for a year because it was turning me on and making me very demanding about what “the perfect guy” would do. However, I had good girl friends who loved God who were able to watch chick flicks with no problem. =)
I have to say, this is my favorite piece you have written that I’ve read. I can relate so much to every point you bring up.
Krysta,
Your honesty encourages me so much. Thank you!
Now we must get together to swap stories and grow through this to be stronger and more loving wives.
Thanks again, Jonalyn and Dale. I am trying to encourage the people around me in Asia, Europe, Africa and the States to begin looking at all this through the eyes of REALITY and using the Bible as a lens rather than through the tinted – or blinder covered eyes of cultural mis-information, evangelical sexism, Augustinian biases, etc. etc. We criticise the “traditional” churches for having painted wrong portraits of women as the “temptresses” and then we go to the other post – Puritanical extreme of making Christian women practically sexless ” Madonnas”! We want to focus on women like Mary and Martha – and we try to overlook the VERY flesh and blood Ruth, Esther, Jael, Deborah, Rebecca, Sarah, Hagar, etc. Pray for the male youth and college pastors around the world – I find them the most narrow minded and lacking in objectivity with regards to all this – AND they don’t read enough of differing view points. Mamma MIA!! Thanks again! Blessings and prayers.
Kieran,
Always love hearing your awareness of this problem. Especially with your multi-cultural experiences.
I’d love to hear more about these Augustinian biases. Are you speaking of his aversion to sex pre Fall?
Thank you, thank you, thank you Jonalyn for writing and posting this two-part article on lust in women. I’ve only recently been able to recognize and name lust as a major problem in my own life, and your article helped me unpack some of the reasons behind why I’ve been struggling with what I’ve been struggling with. Reading this and reflecting on this has opened my eyes to some blindspots in my life (an answer to prayer!). As you noted, women struggling with lust is not often talked about, and your writing has really affirmed and encouraged me. As a sister in Christ and woman who struggles with lust, I thank you.
S,
I’m thankful you let me know! Hope you’ll do a search on “lust” and read other things I’ve written on it. Also, would love to dialog with you more as your recover. Feel free to set a spiritual mentoring appointment at Ask LIVE! by emailing heidi at soulation dot org, too!
Thank you so much for addressing this topic! I wish these were things we would talk about more openly in the church. I entered my teens reading those fluffy relationship books and listening to people in my youth group talk about purity. I was overwhelmed with the pressure to be “pure”! I believed that by following all the pre-marital rules, I would have that perfect husband and those perfect kids by age whatever because, after all, I had done everything the right way. If I waited for love, God would give it to me…pronto! Turns out life doesn’t work that way. My purity ring didn’t keep me from entering an abusive relationship in college. And it didn’t do anything to keep impure, lustful thoughts at bay. After years of being told that lust is a man’s issue, I was in my early 20s and suddenly lusting after men. I had no idea what to do about it. All those youth group talks on purity, all those books on relationships, had not mentioned this part. Thankfully, we have the Word of God to speak the truth to our hearts in the midst of temptation and sin. I still struggle very much with lust (and baby coveteousness…ouch, that plucked a nerve). It’s articles like this that God is using to help me battle the temptations I face. I wish I could tell that 14 yr old version of myself not to be so concerned about the “rules” for maintaining purity but to be enraptured by the grace of God, by which I have been made pure through the righteousness of Christ! Nothing I’ve done or that has been done to me sexually can change what I have been given by Jesus. Thank you, thank you for not letting this issue be ignored.
Rachel,
Your comment moved me so much I used it anonymously to a group of leaders to show the imperative women have for honesty about sexual shame, the need to speak boldly about breaking the shame with truth and real stories (complete with mistakes and the nuances of loving people with marbled goodness), and the sexually confusing messages we are teaching among followers of Jesus.
Thank you for sharing that this post helped you. You can be a leader with your honesty.
In case you want to hear the talk, check out our Soulation fanpage in the coming week. We’ll be announcing it and the link.